General NFL discussion thread

[tomkaters]

The Packers are going to score a lot of points.

[Lawrence]

I will say that the end of the Cowboys game was very disheartening but over all I think things went much better than expected. For now it looks like offensive line is going to a hundred times more effective than we thought and it looks like the defensive front seven are going to be bringing the havoc more often than not.

One thing you have to realize is that last night the Cowboys were missing their top 3 corner backs for the majority of the game. We had Brian Mccann playing corner last night and he is a safety! At that he is not even a good safety and he was our #2 corner back last night!

Which to me really shows that Mark Sanchez is sub par QB at best. I can't imagine an elite quarterback not carving up a secondary that is so dismal. Sure, they got us through the air plenty but I have to imagine a better QB would have dismantled such a secondary.

Also, Ware, Bryant, and Austin are monsters.  

I say the Cowboys are going to be a lot better this year then people give them credit for.

[Wood]

I will say that the end of the Cowboys game was very disheartening but over all I think things went much better than expected. For now it looks like offensive line is going to a hundred times more effective than we thought and it looks like the defensive front seven are going to be bringing the havoc more often than not.

One thing you have to realize is that last night the Cowboys were missing their top 3 corner backs for the majority of the game. We had Brian Mccann playing corner last night and he is a safety! At that he is not even a good safety and he was our #2 corner back last night!

Which to me really shows that Mark Sanchez is sub par QB at best. I can't imagine an elite quarterback not carving up a secondary that is so dismal. Sure, they got us through the air plenty but I have to imagine a better QB would have dismantled such a secondary.

Also, Ware, Bryant, and Austin are monsters.  

I say the Cowboys are going to be a lot better this year then people give them credit for.

I expected Dallas to finish 2nd to the Eagles in the division from jump street, so I don't disagree with you. As to your secondary, I think the problem you're facing is that the injuries aren't transient. Jenkins gutted it out last night but he needs time off to get effective again, clearly. Newman is going to be healthy who knows when, and now Scandrick, who just earned himself a nice contract extension, is out at least three to four weeks with an ankle injury.

My main issue with Dallas, and we saw it last night, is that Rob Ryan is MASSIVELY overrated. Massively.

[Lawrence]

I expected Dallas to finish 2nd to the Eagles in the division from jump street, so I don't disagree with you. As to your secondary, I think the problem you're facing is that the injuries aren't transient. Jenkins gutted it out last night but he needs time off to get effective again, clearly. Newman is going to be healthy who knows when, and now Scandrick, who just earned himself a nice contract extension, is out at least three to four weeks with an ankle injury.

My main issue with Dallas, and we saw it last night, is that Rob Ryan is MASSIVELY overrated. Massively.

I don't see how we can say that Rob Ryan is massively overrated at this point. Like I said we were more than crippled on the secondary front last night and we still managed to bring more heat with out blitz in one game lthen we did all last year. He was moving Ware all over the place and Ware was dominating anything that got in his way. I think Rob Ryan has been over hyped previously in his career but as far as this season goes and what he managed to do last night I say he gets an A+. With the defense in the state they were in last night they were still not what lost us that game.

[Wood]

I don't see how we can say that Rob Ryan is massively overrated at this point. Like I said we were more than crippled on the secondary front last night and we still managed to bring more heat with out blitz in one game lthen we did all last year. He was moving Ware all over the place and Ware was dominating anything that got in his way. I think Rob Ryan has been over hyped previously in his career but as far as this season goes and what he managed to do last night I say he gets an A+. With the defense in the state they were in last night they were still not what lost us that game.

He gets an A+ for allowed almost 400 yards, 27 points and 19 first downs against Mark Sanchez and the Jets offense? Wow.

My "overrated" was predicated on what he's done to this point in his career, vs. Wade Phillips.

I wrote an article for Footballguys subscribers about The Most Dangerous Coaching Assumptions heading into the season. One of them was that Rob Ryan was an upgrade over Phillips:

Assumption #2 - Rob Ryan will fix what ails the Dallas defense

The Cowboys were among the 2010 preseason darlings, but ended the season 6-10 and far out of the playoff hunt. The season was filled with low points, including the loss of QB Tony Romo as well as an uneven running game. But what derailed the Cowboys was the collapse of the defense:

436 points allowed (31st in NFL)
5,628 yards allowed (23rd in NFL)
33 passing TDs allowed (31st in NFL)
6.8 yards per passing attempt allowed (28th in NFL)
1,734 rushing yards allowed (12th in NFL)
11 rushing TDs allowed (12th in NFL)
As a result, Wade Phillips was fired unceremoniously midway through the season. Phillips was not only Dallas' head coach, but the defensive coordinator. With Jason Garrett promoted from OC to head coach, the Cowboys brought in Rob Ryan - Rex' twin brother - to run the defense. Ryan has been an NFL defensive coordinator for the last seven years, and there' s perception among NFL punditry that he's going to turn the Cowboys defense around in a hurry.

The assumptions the go into buying into the "Ryan Effect"

Ryan is an aggressive, attacking coach
He's experienced
Ryan has gotten more out of his personnel than others might
He's a better coach than Wade Phillips
My Counterpoints:

Ryan has been far less willing to blitz than his twin brother - By his own admission, Rob doesn't share the philosophy of his brother or father in terms of bringing pressure incessantly. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the idea (which I've seen espoused repeatedly) that Ryan is going to ramp up the pressure as opposed to Wade Phillips bears little resemblance to the reality of what Ryan has done as a defensive play-caller

Ryan's "experience" pales in comparison to Phillips - I have to laugh when I hear people talk of Rob Ryan's "experience" as though it's a feather in his cap. He's been a coordinator for 7 years - which is great, but couch that against Phillips' resume.

Phillips has been a defensive coordinator or head coach for 7 different teams
Phillips has been a DC/Head Coach for 29 consecutive NFL seasons!

Ryan has gotten more out of personnel than others could - To dissect this point, let's first look at Ryan's 7 years as a DC:

Year
Tm
Defense Ranks
Rush D Ranks
Pass D Ranks
Yds
Pts
TkA
Att
Yds
TD
Y/A
FR
Att
Yds
TD
INT
Y/A
2004
OAK
30
31
30
31
22
30
7
25
15
30
27
29
31
2005
OAK
27
25
29
30
25
25
19
8
9
18
9
32
23
2006
OAK
3
18
27
32
25
23
12
31
1
1
7
10
5
2007
OAK
22
26
21
28
31
32
32
27
2
8
4
10
29
2008
OAK
27
24
17
32
31
28
27
20
5
10
14
10
22
2009
CLE
31
21
31
28
28
19
29
26
15
29
14
29
26
2010
CLE
22
13
13
29
27
4
12
20
8
18
24
8
27
OAK-AVG
22
25
25
31
27
28
19
22
6
13
12
18
22
CLE-AVG
27
17
22
29
28
12
21
23
12
24
19
19
27

The first thing that should jump out at you is that Ryan's defenses have ranked in the bottom third of yards allowed in all but one season (2006 Oakland), and have ranked in the top half in points allowed only once (2010 Cleveland). A quick scan also shows that he's never fielded an elite rush defense, but "made his reputation' with a series of strong pass defense rankings in Oakland. So how do we take these stats and extrapolate whether Ryan "did more with less?"

Nnamdi Asomugha was the Raiders top corner - is anyone going to argue that his play suffered without Ryan?

In 2009, without Ryan, the Raiders ranked 7th in passing yards allowed and 6th in TDs (better than Ryan's last season)

In 2008, the year before Ryan, the Browns ranked 14th in passing yards allowed and 10th in TDs (much better than the Browns showing in 2009 with Ryan taking over)

Ryan is a better coach than Wade Phillips - As I already mentioned, Phillips has been an NFL coordinator or head coach for 29 straight seasons. That's nearly three decades running an NFL team/defense with nary a season to "regroup." I know we all fancy ourselves as general managers in training, but does anyone really think that many owners and general managers could be wrong?

Coach
Defense Ranks
Rush D Ranks
Pass D Ranks
Yds
Pts
TkA
Att
Yds
TD
Y/A
FR
Att
Yds
TD
INT
Y/A
Phillips (29 seasons)
14
15
15
11
12
13
14
15
17
16
15
16
14
Ryan (7 seasons)
23
23
24
30
27
23
20
22
8
16
14
18
23
Differential
10
8
9
19
15
10
6
8
-9
0
-1
3
9

What you see above are the AVERAGE defensive rankings for Phillips' and Ryan's defenses over their NFL careers. You might suspect that Phillips has had a wider range of outcomes, given his considerably longer tenure, which is true. Yet Phillips has had enough elite seasons (versus Ryan's NONE), that a comparison of their averages is illustrative.

On average, Phillips' defenses have ranked 14th in yards - almost 10 spots higher than Ryan's
On average, Phillips' defenses have ranked 15th in points - 8 spots higher than Ryan's
On average, Phillips' defenses have ranked 15th in takeaways - 9 spots higher than Ryan's


If there's one thing you can credit Ryan, it's that his pass defenses have been comparable to Phillips. But his rushing defenses have been woefully inadequate. The problem Dallas fans should be thinking about is that PERSONNEL matters and the Cowboys still have major question marks in the secondary. Mike Jenkins is gimpy, Terence Newman is hurt, and the safeties are a work in progress.

KEY TAKEAWAY - The Cowboys have plenty of talent on defense and the team underperformed in 2010. You could easily see the Cowboys defense "improve" this year for reasons that have nothing to do with the coaching, yet the improvement may ultimately be seen as a justification for firing Phillips and hiring Ryan. But Phillips' career as a defensive mind is exceedingly more impressive than Ryan's; and we have to remember that Phillips was in a difficult position of being the head coach AND the defensive coordinator. I personally think the Cowboys could struggle again in 2011 defensively, and I wouldn't touch them as anything more than a fantasy defense. The good news is that if Ryan struggles as I suspect he might, the Cowboys will need to maintain an aggressive, pass-heavy offense which bodes well for the likes of Tony Romo, Dez Bryant, Miles Austin, Jason Witten and company.

[Lawrence]

So if the Eagles came out to play against the Jets and they were missing Rodgers Cromartie, Osmahdahalha, and Samuels you would expect them to not give up 400 yards? They would be just as solid?

Things got so bad for Wade Phillips last year that he was let go midseason. We played the most manilla defense in the league and even his own players have said repeatedly that the last two years they felt they had become completely predictable in their defensive scheme. We went I think around 8 games last season with Phillips and zero turn overs. The apathy on the defensive side of the ball last year was so thick you could of poured it onto your pancakes.

Rob Ryan gets knocked for not having great season with the Raiders and the Browns? Those seem like a lot of numbers that add up to nothing.

I understand that the he has not had the most illustrious career but who has had a great career in those places in the last 8 years?

Sure on paper I guess it might seem like we need to bring Wade Phillips back I think if you watched any of the games last year with Phillips as the coach you would see that he was not performing. He lulled this team to sleep last year with his coaching. He might do well somewhere else but it was clear as day that he was no longer the right fit here for the Cowboys.

I do agree with you that I think that Rob Ryan is over hyped and has yet to prove anything but I completely disagree about Wade Phillips as far as the Cowboys are concerned. And I think blaming Rob Ryan for those 400 yards last night is a little off the mark. In my opinion.

[Wood]

So if the Eagles came out to play against the Jets and they were missing Rodgers Cromartie, Osmahdahalha, and Samuels you would expect them to not give up 400 yards? They would be just as solid?

Things got so bad for Wade Phillips last year that he was let go midseason. We played the most manilla defense in the league and even his own players have said repeatedly that the last two years they felt they had become completely predictable in their defensive scheme. We went I think around 8 games last season with Phillips and zero turn overs. The apathy on the defensive side of the ball last year was so thick you could of poured it onto your pancakes.

Rob Ryan gets knocked for not having great season with the Raiders and the Browns? Those seem like a lot of numbers that add up to nothing.

I understand that the he has not had the most illustrious career but who has had a great career in those places in the last 8 years?

Sure on paper I guess it might seem like we need to bring Wade Phillips back I think if you watched any of the games last year with Phillips as the coach you would see that he was not performing. He lulled this team to sleep last year with his coaching. He might do well somewhere else but it was clear as day that he was no longer the right fit here for the Cowboys.

I do agree with you that I think that Rob Ryan is over hyped and has yet to prove anything but I completely disagree about Wade Phillips as far as the Cowboys are concerned. And I think blaming Rob Ryan for those 400 yards last night is a little off the mark. In my opinion.

Recognize that the reason Phillips was playing a vanilla defense was because of the poor secondary. Wade didn't buy the ingredients (Jerry did), he just had to make the soup. Ryan doesn't know how to scheme. If he doesn't have aggressive corners, he's lost. Versatility is what makes a coach great. Rob, at best, is good.

Now a change was probably in order anyway in Big D, particularly because it was unfair to make someone be the head coach and the defensive coordinator. But my point was that the idea (which MANY espoused) that Rob Ryan was the tonic to what ailed the defense was a foolish assumption. Now if Rob + better personnel + better health result in better numbers, so be it.

[Lawrence]

Recognize that the reason Phillips was playing a vanilla defense was because of the poor secondary. Wade didn't buy the ingredients (Jerry did), he just had to make the soup. Ryan doesn't know how to scheme. If he doesn't have aggressive corners, he's lost. Versatility is what makes a coach great. Rob, at best, is good.

Now a change was probably in order anyway in Big D, particularly because it was unfair to make someone be the head coach and the defensive coordinator. But my point was that the idea (which MANY espoused) that Rob Ryan was the tonic to what ailed the defense was a foolish assumption. Now if Rob + better personnel + better health result in better numbers, so be it.

I agree with that. The only thing that will fix this defense is when Terrence Newman and Jenkins are no longer our starting cornerbacks and when Sensabuagh and Elam are gone. They are jokes. As a big Cowboys fan I am so tired of Newman and it looks like Jenkins is the same thing. I understand Jenkins was "gutting it out" last night but if he was that bad then just take his ass off the field.

Same with Bryant. I love Bryant I am not blaming him but if the guy can't run take him off the field. In the 4th quarter he was nothing but a liability out there. What made the situation worse is that not only could he not run but Revis is covering him and even with all of that going on what does the dumb ass Tony Romo do? Try to throw the guy the ball not once but twice! 

No matter who the coach is I am afraid you can't fix stupid.

[thefreakytiki]

Do we need to call the suicide prevention hotline for Tiki?

I'm OK.  Thanks for caring though. 

I worked all day yesterday and couldn't focus on the game.  All I know is every time I looked up at the game, Big Ben was throwing an interception or fumbling.  Yikes.

I know the battles (and I mean BATTLES) with the Ravens are always hard fought and nothing is ever guaranteed but I never expected it to be that much of a domination.  Ouch.

Bring on the Seahawks!


the Tiki

[steve bryant]

I'm OK.  Thanks for caring though. 

I worked all day yesterday and couldn't focus on the game.  All I know is every time I looked up at the game, Big Ben was throwing an interception or fumbling.  Yikes.

I know the battles (and I mean BATTLES) with the Ravens are always hard fought and nothing is ever guaranteed but I never expected it to be that much of a domination.  Ouch.

Bring on the Seahawks!

Tarvaris Jackson is likely the cure for what ails you!

[Chris]

BEARS

[Planck length]

GO Patriots!!!

wait fergie is a co owner of the dolphins?

[valance_the_hunter]

Alex Smith Is the top ranked qb in the nfc west!  Good lord, what a world.

[Planck length]

Alex Smith Is the top ranked qb in the nfc west!  Good lord, what a world.

well the sea hawks are a college team.

so far for the pats Woodhead is our short yardage back?

[valance_the_hunter]

Oh, I wasn't gloating…I just thought it sounded funny.  I still think week 10 Harbaugh dons a helmet.

[Planck length]

Oh, I wasn't gloating…I just thought it sounded funny.  I still think week 10 Harbaugh dons a helmet.

i wasn't joking sea hawks look like a  college team

[valance_the_hunter]

i wasn't joking sea hawks look like a  college team

Yea, no doubt.  I heard that the seahawks have something like seven people that have been on that team more than three years.  That's crazy.  Jack In The Box has a better turn over rate.

[bedrack]

I mentioned this over in the  'Pimp your Podcast' thread, but thought I'd post it here as well. My buddy and I are previewing all 32 NFL teams and all 52 DC books in our podcast, Sports Fan Boys, which you can find on iTunes or sportsfanboys.com

[Chris Campbell]

Tarvaris Jackson is likely the cure for what ails you!

You guys kill me. But you're right.

I just wanna sneak into the playoffs so we can upset another SB champ...

[thefreakytiki]

You guys kill me. But you're right.

I just wanna sneak into the playoffs so we can upset another SB champ...

Hey Chris,

It's my boys vs. yours... wanna place a "comic book bet"?   


the Tiki