X-Men and Societal tolerance

[Dean S.]

Hey all,

I've gotten into a couple of discussions in the comments sections with people over at WCBR and wanted to bounce this off my fellow 11 O'clockers since I think you all are a pretty insightful and thoughtful group of people....

The issue that keeps getting me into slight "trouble" with readers of our site is when I review an X-Men title and comment that the anti-mutant angle just doesn't work for me anymore.  I'm talking about the theme where the mutants are feared and hated by society because they are different and this leads to Sentinels, Days of Future Past, Age of X, etc. 

My issue is that although I think those topics were VERY relevant in the United States when the X-Men were created in the 1960's.  Back then our country was only 20 years removed from locking up Japanese Americans during WWII, we were forcibly sterilizing the mentally ill in every state in the US and Black Americans couldn't use same water fountains as White Americans in half the country.  In the 1980's when I grew to love the X-Men, those racial matters has subsided, but were still pretty relevant because lots of people had grandfathers who fought in WWII and refused to buy Japanese products and bigoted uncles who told horrid jokes at family gatherings. 

But now (in 2011), I just don't see the US as a society that would/could ever start interning or sterilizing groups of people (didn't happen after 9/11) and most of the hard core bigots are dead.  And then I look at the next generation and see LOTS of interracial couples (to the point that I think they ARE colorblind) and way less mania about homosexuality than my generation had (I'm 37).

But....every time I mention this in a X-Men review, I get someone in the comments section pointing out how much racial hated and bigotry is seething right under the surface, how it wouldn't take much for the US to become genocidal again, etc., etc. 

I just don't see it, but wondered what you all think.  AND....to make it a comic related discussion, if you take intolerance away from the X-Men, are they just the Defenders or some other group of superheroes?

[BurlIves]

Well, I think the fear of the Other will always be with us in some form or fashion, that's the way we are wired as humans.  Even if we are not "offensively" persecuting other groups, we act defensively - living in gated communities so our kids don't have to interact with other socio economic groups, building border fences and railing against immigration, attempting to "defend" the institution of marriage from same sex partners, or building up radicalized Islam as the new communist menace. 

So the targets change, and the particular manifestations of those fears change, but the undercurrent is always there, and we're just talking about other nationalities and religions here.  Which is not to say all these social fears will lead to genocide, but imagine how we would act if another actual species was in amongst us?  Obviously the comics have to ratchet up the stakes; it's harder to get worked up about oblique social stigma when you can go full on genocide.  Now whether that works for you in terms of a compelling read is another matter.

I always see the traditional super groups as defending society from the outside threat, whereas mutants are focused on inner turmoil - I think even without the mutant stigma they'd still be fighting amongst themselves.  A bit like the difference between Lovecraft's horror and Stephen King's horror if that makes any sense.

[Dotanuki]

Oh, I think all the internment/forced sterilization BS could happen again in this country or another country. That the Tuskegee Syphilis Study horror was finally shut down in the 1970s, that my wife has had to deal with being called a "half-breed" by a former co-worker (herself a mix of WASP and Japanese-American backgrounds), that I still have nuclear-family-level-of-closeness relatives who vocally support racial profiling (even though their 37-year-old relative is about to have a Puerto Rican/African American/WASP child who is going probably going to grow up with the same issues re: "passing" that I had to grow up with)...long story short: yeah, everything a potential despot-bigot would need to create fear, uncertainty, doubt and oppression is all still with us, IMHO. I am 37 too and I'm only just now getting around to learning about the Khmer Rouge; it is shocking to me that that stuff happened in '75 since the atrocities committed during it seem like pages right out of Nazi death-camps c. 1944.

The potential for human cruelty is always there, IMHO. I try not to lose sleep over it but I can't afford to buy the dream that my society is somehow "above it" now. I wanted to believe this as a little kid in the '80s, when 2011 seemed like some fantasy time that would never come to pass anyway, when we'd all fly to work in Blade Runner-esque flying cars, speak Pidgeon Chinese while chasing Replicants, etc. In adulthood I have given way to much more of the cynicism in Blade Runner, actually: that when we finally do create our first artificial persons they will have to deal with everything that brown folks like my mother & wife and folks-who-pass like me have had to deal with since humans first saw their reflections in water.

[Jordan]

Great topic!

I think that the X-Men can stand for any group that is a minority, such as gay people or muslims, that the majority treats badly.  I agree that racial tensions have lessened since the mutants first appeared, but I think they will always connect with an audience that feels ostracized or left out in the cold (teenagers..... You listening Marvel?).

Here's the thing though, if you take away the whole metaphor/analogy thing, within the 616, it still makes a certain amount of sense that mutants would be feared to some extent.  Think about it, these people are usually/mostly teenagers running around with amazing powers that they very often don't know how to control.  Frankly, if that happened in the real world, I would be scared as shit; not that a mutant is going to hurt me on purpose, but that Storm might accidently fry me with lighting, or Jean might turn my brain to mush ON ACCIDENT.  I wouldn't say to intern them or kill them via giant robots (who will certainly turn against their masters), but for your average civilian, mutants would be quite disturbing.  

When people comment on your reviews that racial tensions are right beneath the surface, I think that in general they are overstated; racists and racism will always be around, even if it's at a low tide.  

I have a very bipolar view of humankind and civilizations as a whole.  I'm a history major and I've read to many times about a society devolving into brutish behavior that would seem to completely out of character for them for me to ever really think that stuff like that could would never happen.  I know it's not on a grand scale, but the truth is we have imprisoned people after 9/11 and never charged them or done much of anything besides torture and detain them without end.  Imagine a world where there is a constant, ever running news story about mutants using their powers for evil or a weekly incident where some mutant kid blows up or can't control their laser powers.  

I think what makes the X-Men special from other teams is that they, usually, are young, new to their powers, and are forced together either because of human hatred or simply out of a need to learn about their powers.  I've probably read more X-Men based books then any other superhero group and I've always really liked the stories that showcase younger mutants who are not quite in control of themselves.  

[jdudley]

I work in public housing in an urban environment and deal with accounts of racism from all angles on a day to day basis. I do tend to be hyper sensitive to these issues as they most certain exist in American society today. However, I do also truly believe that we have made great progess as a society--particularly in recent decades--in becoming a more tolerant culture in so far as racial differences are concerned.
That being said, I think it is an unfortunate aspect of all human cultures to operate socially as pack animals. We define ourselves by those we percieve to be different from ourselves. While we continue to include more and more cultures and races into our mainstream american society those differences most easily seen (color) or seen in practice (religion) still create a great deal of hostility here in the US.
Then again, I still do truly believe that we have become a much more tolerant society in day to day practice than we have ever been in our history--and certainly much more tolerant than some outspoken (and anonymous) bigots who post things online would have many of us believe.
X-Men, at it's best, can often explore these issues in a way which many readers don't even realize they are being subjected to. This is, of course, the most beautiful aspect of any fantasy/sci-fi genre of storytelling: it can affect our real-world view by presenting genuine issues to us and allowing us to process these issues without our preconcieved bias from distorting the picture.
I have read very few X-Men stories that have done this effectively though. Morrison's New X-Men comes to mind, and the upcomming X-men: First Class film appears as though it may work with these concepts effectively too.

[Former Poet Laureate]

Which is why I find the X-Men pretty tiresome, really. First they were (supposedly) metaphors for Jews, then for gays, now for...whatever group the writer wants to make a point about. Which is fine, but if you want to tell stories about societal issues - just tell them. You can do that now. You don't have to throw mutants and giant robots and space empires in the mix any more.

You know what's a lot more interesting, to me at least, then French Muslim Batman? French Muslim regular dude. Tell that story.

[Jordan]

I think that the X-Men are metaphors for oppressed groups in general, not just one. 

[BurlIves]

Which is why I find the X-Men pretty tiresome, really. First they were (supposedly) metaphors for Jews, then for gays, now for...whatever group the writer wants to make a point about. Which is fine, but if you want to tell stories about societal issues - just tell them. You can do that now. You don't have to throw mutants and giant robots and space empires in the mix any more.

You know what's a lot more interesting, to me at least, then French Muslim Batman? French Muslim regular dude. Tell that story.

In a world where you can't show a teabagger demonstration as social context without incurring someones wrath, I think you might be looking in the wrong place.  I mean, people are telling those stories, just not the big 2.

And it goes to show the fallacy of authorial intent.  Some revisionist wag notes that the X-men can be read as a metaphor for racism, and all of a sudden it's Stan's stairway to literary respectability, and has to inform every story  point forward.

[Dean S.]

Glad other folks find this stuff interesting and the differing points of view are great. 

One other thought that I probably should have added in my original post is that I suggested in a couple of my reviews that perhaps the should move the X-Men to a part of the world where ethnic intolerance still happens today.  There are a scads of them ranging from China, all through SE Asia, Central Asia, the Middle East, Africa, the Balkans, etc.  And that a story set in those locations might connect better than a story set in the US.

I've always viewed the X-Men as standing for oppressed groups in general, but I just don't see oppressed groups in the US anymore.  I DO see people who are struggling, but don't think it's due to any systematic prejudice by the majority. 

Of course, there are always going to be bigots out there, but I just don't see interracial couples or homosexual couples drawing sneers or slack-jawed stares the way they did 25 years ago.  I also have a few military friends and was talking to them about the whole don't-ask-don't-tell thing a few months back and I asked him if soldiers even cared about that any more since a lot of the soldiers weren't even born when that Clinton-era policy was adopted.  They basically said it was the 50 year old officers and senior NCOs who cared, but the younger folks are from a more tolerant generation and just don't really give a crap one way or another. 

Fun discussion.  I knew you folks would be fun on this topic! 

[Dotanuki]

Of course, there are always going to be bigots out there

In my case, "out there" = my own family (and not "distant relatives that I never see anymore"), out here in supposedly-liberal, free-thinking Western Washington State. Alas! It would be nice if I could walk around and not see bigotry in the US anywhere; this is just not the reality of my surroundings (apologies to Fishbone).

When I travel back to Missouri with my wife to visit her mother and step-father we travel out there aware that there are folks that her step-father plays horseshoes with on the weekends that really don't shy away from "the 'n' word", etc. Out there really isn't out there for me...if it is for you then perhaps that is indicative of some anecdotal progress just as my experiences are indicative of anecdotal lacks of the same.

[LA Rabbit]

While we may have come along way baby, we still have a long way to go.  I don't know if I am just pessimistic, but I think there are lots of systems keeping people down.  I think we are heading in the right direction.     I think the good stories can function in different ways to different people.  If it speaks to the sort of existential isolation that many people feel at some point in their lives, then that is good.  However, I also think there are still substantial and unfair barriers placed in people's way based on ridiculous criteria. 

I was absolutely crushed when California collectively decided to discriminate against gay people with regard to marriage.  People think of California as liberal but that is a myth based on a few locations, most of CA is conservative.  I don't know if any of you saw the Yorba Linda protests that happened this year but that wasn't very pretty either.  As silly as it is, at a minimum I wish the discourse on these issues could at least be civil.  Does the yelling and vitriol ever convince anyone?  I know it turns me off.  I have been persuaded on things in the past but screaming at me isn't going to convince me.   

   

[leafinsectman (Dan)]

Stuff can go from good back to bad even today but I think as a whole, things are getting better (even if its little by little). Of course there are still racists and bigots out there but they're dying out and there's not enough of them being born/bred to sustain their group for an extended period of time. I think the internet has done a good job of bringing people together and letting them know what its like in other parts of the world and as long as we keep that connectivity with one another then I don't see things getting a lot worse. Maybe you'll take a couple of steps back every now and again but I believe that things are headed towards the right direction (even if it sometimes seems like we're at a standstill). Or maybe I'm just too optimistic, I don't know.

As for the X-Men, I think they'd still be out there fighting for those who are oppressed even if they themselves are not oppressed anymore. But if you're talking about putting them in a world where there's no intolerance whatsoever then would there be any need for heroes? I guess there would be when the odd nutjob or someone not from Earth tries to take over the world. In which case maybe the Avengers would ask certain members for help if they require their expertise on something.

Steve Rogers: "I need someone who can phase through things and can control the weather, get me the X-Men!"

At first, the X-Men might try to still remain a team that takes on threats but in this utopia world, there might not be a great deal of threats so they'll just spend a lot of time training and having like an Olympics but for super powered people where they just compete against each other just so they stay sharp. And whenever there's a threat that had to be dealt with, the rosters for the squads will be hand picked based on the threat so certain members will just hook up with Cap and others whenever needed. Or maybe they'd go off-world and help out now that Earth is (mostly) secure. Maybe the X-Men would eventually just be a school to help mutants deal with their powers and provide counseling as opposed to a team that actively fights people.

I guess to answer your question, they'd still be X-Men. The years of intolerance would be burned into their souls, so much so that they'd cling together and still be a team even if all they do is play baseball and sit around and watch movies and stuff.

[Brian G]

I just don't see it, but wondered what you all think.  AND....to make it a comic related discussion, if you take intolerance away from the X-Men, are they just the Defenders or some other group of superheroes?

They don't really represent a repressed race as much as society's outcasts. They're meant to appeal to the introverts, freeks, geeks, and outsiders. That's a good chunk of comic readers. I think if you take this away from the book, it doesn't work. They're a society of people who will never it in, trying to fit in. They'll always be hated because they're different. This is the main theme. You can't take it away.

To be quite honest, I don't think they were originally meant to represent any race. The Stan and Kirby run was clearly influenced by the original Doom Parol run. They were going for the "Strangest Heroes of All" thing.

[TreverC]

Our society has moved on but we have a lot of people who garner power by beating that drum that the system is out to get you and if not for me you'd be back on the plantation or in an internment camp.  Fact is we as a society don't go over board anymore when it comes to race and we're getting there over sexuality.  I'm from Calie and the majority I talked to who where in favor of Pro. 8 where so for first amendment rights.  While gay marrage was legal here several churches where sued because those of the church felt it was a sin and didn't want to participate.  I'm of the mind set that government has on business sanctioning any marrage one way or another. 

Any way I've always thought it would be more compelling to see the X-book reflect the times.  Show that the government no long wants to see all mutants dead but does want young mutants put in environments where they can learn to controll their powers (like Xavier's school).  Then show the bigotry come from a few individuals, some powerful, some not.  And create a new villain who would feed off convincing mutants that the government is one step away from bringing back the sentinels but he or she can stop it with their support.

[LoadofBS]

i agree with dean.
it's 2011. the x-men as a metaphor for (insert ANY group here) is tired to me. there's great characters in the x-men. by constantly wedging the x-men into allegories that they may not fit it can hurt both story and character.
the last 15 years of x-books have all been about either the public at large wanting to be mutants or that mutants were the (future) majority. there are obviously some fine stories to tell there but you'd have to leave the "oppressed minority" role behind to do so. it seems to me that a lot of x-geeks want the x-men to be discriminated against and view assimilation as the biggest enemy of the mutants. i think that's what decimation was about.

if logan wasn't hated for being born a mutant his books wouldn't change one damn bit. he wouldn't be loved. he wouldn't be everybody's hero. he'd still be hated because he's a surly dude with knives sprouting out of his hands who kills people. do you really need racism thrown in there too? and if so what does that say about you?

[Brian G]

i agree with dean.
it's 2011. the x-men as a metaphor for (insert ANY group here) is tired to me.

With X-Men, I'd argue that 80% of the time, it's the reader putting in the metaphor and not the creators.

[Dean S.]

With X-Men, I'd argue that 80% of the time, it's the reader putting in the metaphor and not the creators.

That's a very interesting way to look at it.  Perhaps, that is why that part of the X-Men stories don't connect with me anymore (at least THOSE types of stories) because I don't have any bigotry in my heart and don't have any bigots around me in my life (I work at a university, which has it's downsides, but does tend to celebrate diversity).  When I was a kid and really enjoyed those stories, I went to a kinda redneck high school that had racial stuff flinging around left and right (from both sides).  I consider that mostly a property of the times, but maybe without a daily example of intolerance in my life, I just don't have anything to project onto these stories. 

Good thought....

[scoundrel3000]

IMHO there's still enough intolerance in the world to mine for a good X-MEN comic.  There might not be as much racism in America anymore.  But you can look anywhere and find someone hating someone else for no damn good reason at all. 

That being said, no, not every X-Men comic needs to be about intolerance.