Jason Aaron says "fuck you Alan Moore"

[VinceB]

I think Vince meant at the Big 2.

 

[JimN]

A slight divergence on the topic of "Best Ever..."

I find Alan Moore's storytelling mechanics to be technically proficient—incredibly dazzling in terms of the variety of ways that he can tell a story and tailor his work to suit the stylistic approach of his collaborators. His ability to deftly weave disparate concepts together—or juxtapose them—is mind-boggling. His work is densely layered and filled with subtext. It's conceptually brilliant and I'm stunned by it all.

Yet I find an almost complete lack of humanity in his characters. Rorschach is compelling, but there's no emotional tether there for me. I don't feel anything for the plight of the way that Tom Strong was raised. There's no resonance for me in the relationship between Abby and the Swamp Thing. Adrian Veidt, Sophie Bangs, Smax, Supreme, etc, feel like little more than placeholders in the middle of epic, sweeping explorations of incredible concepts.

Does this mean that I hate Alan Moore or his work?

Absolutely not.

Alan Moore's works have challenged me on an intellectual level, they've broadened my horizons in terms of storytelling possibilities, and they've showcased a glorious, mad scientist approach to connecting a multitude of meta concepts together in innovative and groundbreaking ways, but they've never moved me emotionally in the way that, say, Robert Kirkman (on Walking Dead) or Brian K. Vaughn (on Runaways or Y: The Last Man) routinely did.

At that point, it really does come down to personal preference and what you, the reader, want to get out of the work.

Well said, Steve. I have a similar take on Moore, although sometimes I think he gets so buried in that mad scientist approach that the work no longer even dazzles. The man's talented and technically masterful but those qualities alone don't make someone the best. I tend to struggle to connect to Moore's work on an emotional level too.

Jim

[darrell]

[Steve-t]

in print he comes off bitter and angry, but when you hear him in an interview he's extremely gentle, funny and charming. Mesmerizing.

'Tis true! How can anyone say this isn't an intelligent, charming and funny man...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Cam2kK7J_8k&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Cam2kK7J_8k&rel=1</a>

[Julian Lytle]

My bad. I haven't read Swamp Thing yet. But one day I'll let you know what I think.

[Jay Tomio]

To add something to this, in the Morrison doc, Morrison recounts a story about writing after Moore and trying to contact him. Moore dissed him.


 

And you know in the doc Grant doesn't say anything about him in anything ill, he just keeps on talking.

I'd file that under being normal and a normal reaction.

[Scott C.]

I think Vince meant at the Big 2. Otherwise, I definitely disagree. I think there are contemporary comics as good as Watchmen or the Moore/Bissette/Totleben Swamp Thing.

Jim

Out of curiousity, which books?

[Dave A]

Out of curiousity, which books?

Neonomicon, Promethea, Tom Strong, Tomorrow Stories...   

[Scott C.]

Yet I find an almost complete lack of humanity in his characters. Rorschach is compelling, but there's no emotional tether there for me. I don't feel anything for the plight of the way that Tom Strong was raised. There's no resonance for me in the relationship between Abby and the Swamp Thing. Adrian Veidt, Sophie Bangs, Smax, Supreme, etc, feel like little more than placeholders in the middle of epic, sweeping explorations of incredible concepts.

Abby and Swamp Thing?  It's official-- Steve Bryant has no heart.  

I can see some of this.  Particularly in later Moore, there's hardly ever any personality in his characters.  They're a lot of plot-delivery vehicles.  But that's always been a weakness in his books.  Even that Superman Annual, where he's trying to pull at the reader's heartstrings, is more brilliant because of the dreams and wishes of Superman than because of any emotional turmoil that Moore put Superman through.

For Watchmen, I guess it depends on which characters you look at.  Rorschach?  Veidt?  I don't know if you're supposed to feel for them but when I read it as Dan, Laurie or Manhattan's story, I think I see a more personal story of fear and hope.

And, my god, Miracleman is still a book that haunts me.  The story of Michael Moran is probably the most character driven story he's ever told.  Of course, that was 30 years ago.  

What has he done for me lately?

[steve bryant]

Out of curiousity, which books?

I'd say the Walking Dead is. While it lacks the storytelling ambition or technical proficiency of Watchmen, it exceeds the book in terms of raw, visceral, emotional impact.

Again (referring to my post on page 10 of this thread), based on emotional resonance versus high concept brilliance, one could make a case for 100 Bullets, Y: The Last Man, Criminal and Mr. Aaron's own Scalped, among other titles.

[Ryan 'gobo' C.]

A slight divergence on the topic of "Best Ever..."

Karma for Steve! I've never really connected with Alan Moore and haven't been able to put my finger on why, Steve pretty much summer it up for me.

[steve bryant]

Abby and Swamp Thing?  It's official-- Steve Bryant has no heart.  

I'm not saying that I don't see his attempt at investing the characters with an emotional spark; I just don't think he succeeds anywhere near as deftly as the examples I cited.

For Watchmen, I guess it depends on which characters you look at.  Rorschach?  Veidt?  I don't know if you're supposed to feel for them but when I read it as Dan, Laurie or Manhattan's story, I think I see a more personal story of fear and hope.

Again, I see the attempt at it in Dan and Laurie, and as Jon removes himself from Laurie (and earlier, Janey)...but does it ever produce that whole "catch in the throat moment" that Kirkman has perfected with the Walking Dead cast? Never. Not even close.

And, my god, Miracleman is still a book that haunts me.  The story of Michael Moran is probably the most character driven story he's ever told.  Of course, that was 30 years ago.  

I haven't read them in years and long ago sold my copies. If the legal morass is ever untangled, and I have a chance to reread them, perhaps my opinion will be different.

[steve bryant]

Karma for Steve! I've never really connected with Alan Moore and haven't been able to put my finger on why, Steve pretty much summer it up for me.

Thanks, sir!

Technical proficiency or emotional resonance...

With rock vocalists as a metaphor, there are plenty who can make a case for Freddie Mercury and for Tom Waits.

And many people who like both and the varied spectrum in between.

[Kenney]

Your opinion of the work and the quality of the work are two different things.

Indeed. I don't really fuck with The Beatles like that, but I certainly respect their creations, influence, or contributions to music.

[Scott C.]

I'm not saying that I don't see his attempt at investing the characters with an emotional spark; I just don't think he succeeds anywhere near as deftly as the examples I cited.

This is a great example of how we read differently.  I don't think I've connected emotionally with any of the examples that you listed.  BKV seems to me to be everything you're saying that Moore is, a technically brilliant plotter but can't create a good character to save his life.  And I know I'm in the minority here but with him, all I see is the plot and never the characters.  

Again, I see the attempt at it in Dan and Laurie, and as Jon removes himself from Laurie (and earlier, Janey)...but does it ever produce that whole "catch in the throat moment" that Kirkman has perfected with the Walking Dead cast? Never. Not even close.

Another example that doesn't do much for me.  Kirkman is a soap opera writer, working with superheroes and zombies to me.  I think a lot of his strength on Walking Dead comes from Adlard's ability to bring his story alive.  

Of course, I haven't been as invested in Y The Last Man or Walking Dead for as long as I have with Watchmen or Swamp Thing but there are other comics that of more recent vintage (Bone for an example) that I think is as brilliant or more than anything Moore has done.  

[Dave A]

I'd say the Walking Dead is. While it lacks the storytelling ambition of technical proficiency of Watchmen, it exceeds the book in terms of raw, visceral emotional impact.

Again (referring to my post on page 10 of this thread), based on emotional resonance versus high concept brilliance, one could make a case for 100 Bullets, Y: The Last Man, Criminal and Mr. Aaron's own Scalped, among other titles.

Wow... guess I can't do anything but disagree with your stance that Moore's work lacks emotional impact.

Abby Cable and Swamp Thing getting together was one of the greatest love stories in comics history.

In Watchmen, though Rorschach was (by design) emotionally cold and detached, there was a great deal of impact when we saw what happened to the Silk Spectre's mother at the hands of the Comedian... or who could forget the panel where the old man at the newsstand impotently attempts to shelter the little boy against armageddon?

Neonomicon is eye-poppingly visceral, horrific, and disturbing.

And there are large sequences of From Hell that send shivers through me every time I think about them.

Even Moore's more polemic stuff like Promethea has wonderful characters that are full of life... Sophie Bangs starts off a bit bland, but I felt great compassion for Boo-Boo Ramirez, I laughed with and cared about Stacia, I shook my head at and was delighted by Grace.

I guess I just see his work as being anything but robotic... it teems with life. I've always thought of it as extremely organic.

[Scott C.]

Thanks, sir!

Technical proficiency or emotional resonance...

And of course, people see things differently.  Where one sees proficiency, another sees resonance.  It's the debate between them that's the fun part.

[Dave A]

And of course, people see things differently.  Where one sees proficiency, another sees resonance.  It's the debate between them that's the fun part.

That's true... I heard a lot of folks making the same argument about Asterios Polyp, that it was too emotionally cold for all its technical brilliance. Everyone's right in his own mind, but it was a head-scratcher for me... I was moved, and went through a total emotional rollercoaster reading that book.

[David]

And you know in the doc Grant doesn't say anything about him in anything ill, he just keeps on talking.

Grant probably figures he'll get his revenge on Moore when he gets the bearded one on his spaceship.

[steve bryant]

And of course, people see things differently.  Where one sees proficiency, another sees resonance.  It's the debate between them that's the fun part.

That's true... I heard a lot of folks making the same argument about Asterios Polyp, that it was too emotionally cold for all its technical brilliance. Everyone's right in his own mind, but it was a head-scratcher for me... I was moved, and went through a total emotional rollercoaster reading that book.

Karma for an interesting debate, gents!