Jason Aaron says "fuck you Alan Moore"

[Jeremy G]

Happens to me all the time. Just ask any of my co-workers.  

Dave,you are one slick motherfuc$er. 

[Dave A]

I think that's not really fair. Writing a good story, inside of some parameters set for you, is still requires a lot of talent, and writing those people off as hacks seems unnecessary to me. How is that any different than a writer of a television show having to hold to some plot points of the shows larger structure, or get characters from point A to B before the end of an episode?

I just don't see it. Not to mention, editors can be creative folks too, so why is the editor/writer relationship not seen as a sort of collaboration with the more vocal editors?

Hack doesn't mean devoid of talent (at least to me). It means you don't have anything of your own to say.

Being a writer means having a story you want to tell, that only you can tell, and telling it. Being a scripter means some editor calls you up and says, "I've got a great idea for a story! Type it up for me."

There can be fine writers who also hack some shit out and collect a paycheck.

I'm not saying there can't be collaboration or input from editors (hell, I am an editor), but come on, man... look at those quotations I posted! That's pathetic.  

I don't care if that's what provoked Moore's scorn or not... it's provoked MINE.

[Wood]

Hack doesn't mean devoid of talent (at least to me). It means you don't have anything of your own to say.

Being a writer means having a story you want to tell, that only you can tell, and telling it. Being a scripter means some editor calls you up and says, "I've got a great idea for a story! Type it up for me."

There can be fine writers who also hack some shit out and collect a paycheck.

I'm not saying there can't be collaboration or input from editors (hell, I am an editor), but come on, man... look at those quotations I posted! That's pathetic.  

I don't care if that's what provoked Moore's scorn or not... it's provoked MINE.

But those quotes only show that editorial has a hand in SOME of what's going on. Again, that's not all encompassing, that's anecdotal. If Moore had said that there's a LOT of that B.S. going on, he wouldn't be wrong. It's the absolutism of his comment that makes it fail as anything other than bitter, dismissive commentary.

[Dave A]

But those quotes only show that editorial has a hand in SOME of what's going on. Again, that's not all encompassing, that's anecdotal. If Moore had said that there's a LOT of that B.S. going on, he wouldn't be wrong. It's the absolutism of his comment that makes it fail as anything other than bitter, dismissive commentary.

I could provide 15 more pieces of anecdotal evidence from just the past month... but that's beside the point.

But, yeah, I mean, I agree about Moore... he comes off very old man "these kids today with their rock music" in his quotations. You can tell he hasn't read a lick of it and is dismissive of all of it, which, I'll say it again, makes him kinda full of shit. And that's the sort of attitude that's supposed to get the young'uns fired up and thinking "Fuck you, grampa! I'll show you!"

Instead... Jason Aaron handles it like a whiny bitch. 

[Wood]

I could provide 15 more pieces of anecdotal evidence from just the past month... but that's beside the point.

But, yeah, I mean, I agree about Moore... he comes off very old man "these kids today with their rock music" in his quotations. You can tell he hasn't read a lick of it and is dismissive of all of it, which, I'll say it again, makes him kinda full of shit. And that's the sort of attitude that's supposed to get the young'uns fired up and thinking "Fuck you, grampa! I'll show you!"

Instead... Jason Aaron handles it like a whiny bitch. 

I wouldn't go that far, but I agree it wasn't the best course of action for Jason to undertake.

[Doug!]

I could provide 15 more pieces of anecdotal evidence from just the past month... but that's beside the point.

But, yeah, I mean, I agree about Moore... he comes off very old man "these kids today with their rock music" in his quotations. You can tell he hasn't read a lick of it and is dismissive of all of it, which, I'll say it again, makes him kinda full of shit. And that's the sort of attitude that's supposed to get the young'uns fired up and thinking "Fuck you, grampa! I'll show you!"

Instead... Jason Aaron handles it like a whiny bitch. 

We should send Moore a collection of some of the best comics produced in the last decade.  I'm sure there's some he'd get a kick out of.

I hope.

[Dave A]

We should send Moore a collection of some of the best comics produced in the last decade.  I'm sure there's some he'd get a kick out of.

I hope.

I'd be interested in hearing what Moore thought of Aaron's work specifically.

Quick, someone send him some Scalped and Ghost Rider! 

[Greg Leclair (greg1ca)]

Biggest thread for being Shortied/ kicked ever. I am sure I am not the only one that lost some Karma. Regardless I am sure we all stand by our comments

That's fine. Bring the passion! Read comics!

[Wood]

Biggest thread for being Shortied/ kicked ever. I am sure I am not the only one that lost some Karma. Regardless I am sure we all stand by our comments

That's fine. Bring the passion! Read comics!

Honest question. How do you know you lost karma? I look at your score and see an astounding 15,000 plus. Do you keep mental track? I ask because in all honesty I have no idea when I get or lose karma anymore.

[Chris]

I had a similar reaction when Warren Ellis said he had no interest in comics podcasts. He was pretty insulting in how he painted the entire group of us as basement dwelling fanboys with no ability to talk about comics in an intelligent way. It really pissed me off. I could only think how pissed comics writers get when prose writers and critics dismiss their work in blanket statements like Ellis'. I kind of decided I didn't have much interest talking about his work for a while.

When somebody takes a shot at you and your co-works/colleagues it creates a defensive reaction. Alan Moore took a shot at today's writers, and one of those writers decided to fire back. Jason will get tons of praise and pats on the back from his colleagues because of it. Regardless if he was right in saying it in a public forum.

[Dave A]

Biggest thread for being Shortied/ kicked ever. I am sure I am not the only one that lost some Karma. Regardless I am sure we all stand by our comments

That's fine. Bring the passion! Read comics!

Weren't me, bruther. I've never handed out a single kick (at least not on purpose... I'm sure there have been a handful of accidentals). Don't plan to, either.

Honest question. How do you know you lost karma? I look at your score and see an astounding 15,000 plus. Do you keep mental track? I ask because in all honesty I have no idea when I get or lose karma anymore.

I can always tell when I've been kicked because I don't win the lottery that week.

I hope you're all happy.

[Greg Leclair (greg1ca)]

Honest question. How do you know you lost karma? I look at your score and see an astounding 15,000 plus. Do you keep mental track? I ask because in all honesty I have no idea when I get or lose karma anymore.

I cannot take credit for most of the 15000. That is mostly rewards from Vince for sending him alerts on hot girls and the odd comics and media related alert.

I do check from time to time - to get the pulse of what people think of what I post (good and bad).  Old habit. And I do tend to check my karma counter during particularly passionate debates. I also make sure I throw out lots of karma for folks on both sides of the firing line - including you!

[Jay Tomio]

Honest question. How do you know you lost karma? I look at your score and see an astounding 15,000 plus. Do you keep mental track? I ask because in all honesty I have no idea when I get or lose karma anymore.

Dude, I got you. You don't even have to look. Standard Chart:

-20 for not recognizing Robert Kirkman as a messianic figure
-25 for suggesting everything made by somebody who is not successful is some underappreciated gem and evaluation on the human condition via sequential slice of life.
-32 for liking comics that just kick ass
-35 for admitting comics is a medium of entertainment and not a charity (BTW - one that the major portion of is owned by Disney and Warner Brothers--two entities that really need the money).
- 50 for suggesting proclamations by creators have zero use unless they can be applied to the real world as lived in by normal people.
-100 for balking at the idea of a free 65k bonus for a  project that will almost assuredly not be successful on its own merit
-150 for calling the founding of Image a "creative" endeavor or giving those cats any of ounce credit for making comics people actually liked going to the shop and picking up (a TRULY underappreciated characteristic).

Now watch.

[Wood]

I cannot take credit for most of the 15000. That is mostly rewards from Vince for sending him alerts on hot girls and the odd comics and media related alert.

I do check from time to time - to get the pulse of what people think of what I post (good and bad).  Old habit. And I do tend to check my karma counter during particularly passionate debates. I also make sure I throw out lots of karma for folks on both sides of the firing line - including you!

Check your karma now good sir 

[Wood]

Dude, I got you. You don't even have to look. Standard Chart:

-20 for not recognizing Robert Kirkman as a messianic figure
-25 for suggesting everything made by somebody who is not successful is some underappreciated gem and evaluation on the human condition via sequential slice of life.
-32 for liking comics that just kick ass
-35 for admitting comics is a medium of entertainment and not a charity (BTW - one that the major portion of is owned by Disney and Warner Brothers--two entities that really need the money).
- 50 for suggesting proclamations by creators have zero use unless they can be applied to the real world as lived in by normal people.
-100 for balking at the idea of a free 65k bonus for a  project that will almost assuredly not be successful on its own merit
-150 for calling the founding of Image a "creative" endeavor or giving those cats any of ounce credit for making comics people actually liked going to the shop and picking up (a TRULY underappreciated characteristic).

Now watch.

Your karma looks tight and right to me

[Black Spidey]

I don't think we or Jason Aaron can judge Alan Moore for his comments about comics or the industry. His opinion is formed from his personal history with comics. Its not some abstract "I love reading comics and everything about comics" like I think most fans have the luxury of living. He is commenting on his life, his personal experiences. He has had, what he considers, horrible experiences with Marvel and DC and comics in general. He should be allowed to feel however the fuck he wants about that. Being one of the greatest writers in comics history doesn't mean he has to always go out and be a cheerleader for everything in the world of comics. He did his job, the industry has to take care of itself. If Marvel and DC go bankrupt and no comic ever gets made again that is not Moore's responsibility. He probably won't give a fuck either.

I think where Jason Aaron is wrong is his assuming his love for Alan Moore and purchasing his comics all these years entitle him to receive some kind of appreciation from Alan Moore. Just because you love and support Moore, doesn't mean Moore has to love and support you and all you friends that do comics. In the end I think Moore's work has to and will be judged independent of his old age and personal crankiness. and independent of any one person's personal opinion.

The same way Jason can rant about how he now doesn't give a fuck about Moore, Moore can rant about not giving a fuck about comic stuff.

[Wood]

I don't think we or Jason Aaron can judge Alan Moore for his comments about comics or the industry. His opinion is formed from his personal history with comics. Its not some abstract "I love reading comics and everything about comics" like I think most fans have the luxury of living. He is commenting on his life, his personal experiences. He has had, what he considers, horrible experiences with Marvel and DC and comics in general. He should be allowed to feel however the fuck he wants about that. Being one of the greatest writers in comics history doesn't mean he has to always go out and be a cheerleader for everything in the world of comics. He did his job, the industry has to take care of itself. If Marvel and DC go bankrupt and no comic ever gets made again that is not Moore's responsibility. He probably won't give a fuck either.

I think where Jason Aaron is wrong is his assuming his love for Alan Moore and purchasing his comics all these years entitle him to receive some kind of appreciation from Alan Moore. Just because you love and support Moore, doesn't mean Moore has to love and support you and all you friends that do comics. In the end I think Moore's work has to and will be judged independent of his old age and personal crankiness. and independent of any one person's personal opinion.

The same way Jason can rant about how he now doesn't give a fuck about Moore, Moore can rant about not giving a fuck about comic stuff.

Potty mouth.







 

[steve bryant]

While I can appreciate (and identify with) Moore's frustration with the way that the business is handled, in terms of franchising characters and building upon that which went before, his dismissive attitude toward the creators who are working under these parameters is way off base.

We no longer consume our entertainment the way we did when Moore was working with DC. Newsstand distribution is gone, but is that any different than the differences in the television industry? What was once an advertising-driven field (TV), is now just as driven by sales of the IP on DVD and downloads.  Everything is consumed differently, and everything is marketed toward specific niches—even the news, for that matter. Somewhere, you can find a news outlet that interprets the information of the day in a way that reflects your own bias, be it Fox, MSNBC, Politico, Salon, HuffPo, BigGovernment, etc. I strikes me as incredibly naive of Moore to expect comics to function any differently.

And calling out his peers* as being creatively bankrupt is amazingly silly and somewhat self-involved. Were it not for Dick Giordano's trepidation about "throwing his babies to the wolves," after reading Moore/Gibbons' brilliant pitch for Who Killed Peacemaker, Moore's most revered work would not have existed—at least not in the form that we know it by today.

Just imagine, 24 years ago, we could have had Steve Ditko opining, "Could they [DC] not get one of the ‘top-flight industry creators' to come up with an idea of their own?  Why are DC Comics trying to exploit comic books that I wrote and drew 20 years ago if they have got anything?  Sure they ought to have had an equivalent idea since?" about Moore and Gibbons' original pitch.

I understand Aaron's anger, but wonder if a public proclamation will be something that he'll regret down the line.

*Yes, I believe that Alan Moore has peers, and that's not an insult to the man's tremendous accomplishments.

[Greg Leclair (greg1ca)]

Check your karma now good sir 

Wow! Thanks. I will need to start sending you hot girl alerts as well! 

Cheers!

[Jay Tomio]

I don't think we or Jason Aaron can judge Alan Moore for his comments about comics or the industry. His opinion is formed from his personal history with comics. Its not some abstract "I love reading comics and everything about comics" like I think most fans have the luxury of living. He is commenting on his life, his personal experiences. He has had, what he considers, horrible experiences with Marvel and DC and comics in general. He should be allowed to feel however the fuck he wants about that. Being one of the greatest writers in comics history doesn't mean he has to always go out and be a cheerleader for everything in the world of comics. He did his job, the industry has to take care of itself. If Marvel and DC go bankrupt and no comic ever gets made again that is not Moore's responsibility. He probably won't give a fuck either.

I think where Jason Aaron is wrong is his assuming his love for Alan Moore and purchasing his comics all these years entitle him to receive some kind of appreciation from Alan Moore. Just because you love and support Moore, doesn't mean Moore has to love and support you and all you friends that do comics. In the end I think Moore's work has to and will be judged independent of his old age and personal crankiness. and independent of any one person's personal opinion.

The same way Jason can rant about how he now doesn't give a fuck about Moore, Moore can rant about not giving a fuck about comic stuff.