Jason Aaron says "fuck you Alan Moore"

[Kenney]

Really how wide is it? Like what 300k in the states. That ain't a lot. And even western comics people are dissing the Strips, and the strips still reach more people than the average comic book. Moore is dope, but like rap there is a G.O.A.T. debate going probably every 20 minutes somewhere.

The audience is what the audience is. 300k may not be a lot in comparison to people who read manga in the East, or people who watch the Jersey Shore, but it's still a pretty big number. Else, how could those people support an industry? I know comics aren't on some Johnson and Johnson/Wal-Mart shit, but still for a medium to have enough people to support multiple conventions, publishers, writers and artists, and a distributor -- that's no small shakes. And in my estimation, I would venture to guess there are more than a million or so regular comic readers in the West (combining North America and Europe). How much more is for someone smarter than me to figure out.

I love strips, I just look at them as different than standard comics. Would you get salty if there was a great short out there (and there are tons) that didn't get the nod for being the best movie ever? Things are different, and I think it does a disservice to comic strips to compare them to more long-form comics, just because they work on different levels. But believe, I think Charles Schultz is a god when it comes to putting words and pictures together, and that Aaron McGruder (for a time) was the most interesting voice in sequential story telling. I, like I'm sure you, would like to see comic strips get more respect. 

[aceguitarist3]

But aren't there better ways of doing this?  Instead of just coming out and saying "fuck you, you hurt my feelings," wouldn't it have been a better argument to say just what Moore's missing?  What is being done that may be approaching Swamp Thing or Watchmen level?  For the fans that maybe agreed with Moore's initial assessment of the current talent, why are they wrong and what should they be reading?

Sure Aaron's feelings are valid in a touchy-feely kind of way but he just vented in an extremely public forum but he didn't even try to make an argument.  "Fuck you" isn't an argument.  So shut up and write something to counter Moore's interview.  That's what he's supposed to be isn't it?  A writer?

I get your point. But debating on how he should have responded is a completely different discussion. I know Wood brought up the point that he shouldn't have wrote the article. I was trying to say that Aaron was right in writing it. Could he have done it in a way that would have had an even better impact than simply saying F U? Probably. His emotions got in the way. But rather than present to Moore pieces of work that are very well received by readers, I would prefer for Moore to tell me what exactly he finds so terrible today. I mean, if you're going to make a comment like that, one would assume that you have kept up with something to make that kind of statement no?

[VinceB]

What is being done that may be approaching Swamp Thing or Watchmen level? 

Nothing at all.

[thefreakytiki]

To be honest I'm not sure who is more surly, Alan Moore or Hugh Jarse's nurse Lupe.


the Tiki

[darrell]

Nothing at all.

What if you dont really care for either  title?

[Jay Tomio]

This is actually sweet. I totally want to be a Disney employee and send FU memos.

[VinceB]

What if you dont really care for either  title?

Your opinion of the work and the quality of the work are two different things.

[darrell]

Your opinion of the work and the quality of the work are two different things.

Its all opinion either way. People say Watchmen is the greatest comic story ever and it doesnt make it so. There is no concrete measure one way or the other. I get sick of hearing how every other comic writer that still loves what they do and try to do the best work they can how they are suppose to bow down and take crap from another person not a GOD or an alien but a good writer who made some epic contributions to an industry that that same person now hates on every few years and thats suppose to be ok?

[VinceB]

Its all opinion either way. People say Watchmen is the greatest comic story ever and it doesnt make it so. There is no concrete measure one way or the other.

You don't have to enjoy the story of Watchmen to recognize and appreciate the uncanny manner by which the book was constructed. There's both subjective and objective assessment of art. If you can't separate the two, you shouldn't be reviewing comics.

[Wood]

There are absolutely objective ways to measure art, just as there are subjective ways. Saying something is the "best ever" is subjective, but recognizing that something is a well crafted example of its form is not. To me Watchmen is a great litmus test in that regard. I don't mind if someone says Watchmen isn't their favorite or one of them, but anyone that dismisses it or makes some remark about it being a "bad" comic or poorly crafted pretty much loses all respect from me in terms of their ability to critically evaluate the medium.

[darrell]

You don't have to enjoy the story of Watchmen to recognize and appreciate the uncanny manner by which the book was constructed. There's both subjective and objective assessment of art. If you can't separate the two, you shouldn't be reviewing comics.

Well i know im not worthy but i know its not badly written I know it didnt entertain me. I still dont hold the man up as a God like so many do but I am not one of the chosen touched by his greatness. I leave that to you. But I support Aaron in his write to say what his said because he is vital to the industry and in my small minded opinion more so than Moore because Aaron still  contributes good stories and he still loves the industry.

[VinceB]

Well i know im not worthy but i know its not badly written I know it didnt entertain me. I still dont hold the man up as a God like so many do but I am not one of the chosen touched by his greatness. I leave that to you. But I support Aaron in his write to say what his said because he is vital to the industry and in my small minded opinion more so than Moore because Aaron still  contributes good stories and he still loves the industry.

You're dragging a lot of baggage, my brother. Just let it all go. 

[Julian Lytle]

Nothing at all.

I'd say 20th century boys was. To me.

[darrell]

You're dragging a lot of baggage, my brother. Just let it all go. 

I think we both are 

[Dave A]

There are absolutely objective ways to measure art, just as there are subjective ways. Saying something is the "best ever" is subjective, but recognizing that something is a well crafted example of its form is not. To me Watchmen is a great litmus test in that regard. I don't mind if someone says Watchmen isn't their favorite or one of them, but anyone that dismisses it or makes some remark about it being a "bad" comic or poorly crafted pretty much loses all respect from me in terms of their ability to critically evaluate the medium.

I would very much like to see Alan Moore critically evaluate a handful of mainstream modern comics. Sit down and dissect some books, point out what works and what doesn't. I'd pay to read that sort of expert evaluation, and I bet a lot of modern creators would, too.

As an aside, I wonder how many people on each side of Moore's argument have heard the man speak instead of read his words? I find it an entirely different effect... in print he comes off bitter and angry, but when you hear him in an interview he's extremely gentle, funny and charming. Mesmerizing.

[Wood]

I would very much like to see Alan Moore critically evaluate a handful of mainstream modern comics. Sit down and dissect some books, point out what works and what doesn't. I'd pay to read that sort of expert evaluation, and I bet a lot of modern creators would, too.

As an aside, I wonder how many people on each side of Moore's argument have heard the man speak instead of read his words? I find it an entirely different effect... in print he comes off bitter and angry, but when you hear him in an interview he's extremely gentle, funny and charming. Mesmerizing.

That's just the British accent swaying you. Ever since Benny Hill they've been fooling us with that stuff.
 

[Greg Leclair (greg1ca)]

I wonder if this thread will last all through 2011?

[steve bryant]

A slight divergence on the topic of "Best Ever..."

I find Alan Moore's storytelling mechanics to be technically proficient—incredibly dazzling in terms of the variety of ways that he can tell a story and tailor his work to suit the stylistic approach of his collaborators. His ability to deftly weave disparate concepts together—or juxtapose them—is mind-boggling. His work is densely layered and filled with subtext. It's conceptually brilliant and I'm stunned by it all.

Yet I find an almost complete lack of humanity in his characters. Rorschach is compelling, but there's no emotional tether there for me. I don't feel anything for the plight of the way that Tom Strong was raised. There's no resonance for me in the relationship between Abby and the Swamp Thing. Adrian Veidt, Sophie Bangs, Smax, Supreme, etc, feel like little more than placeholders in the middle of epic, sweeping explorations of incredible concepts.

Does this mean that I hate Alan Moore or his work?

Absolutely not.

Alan Moore's works have challenged me on an intellectual level, they've broadened my horizons in terms of storytelling possibilities, and they've showcased a glorious, mad scientist approach to connecting a multitude of meta concepts together in innovative and groundbreaking ways, but they've never moved me emotionally in the way that, say, Robert Kirkman (on Walking Dead) or Brian K. Vaughn (on Runaways or Y: The Last Man) routinely did.

At that point, it really does come down to personal preference and what you, the reader, want to get out of the work.

[JimN]

I'd say 20th century boys was. To me.

I think Vince meant at the Big 2. Otherwise, I definitely disagree. I think there are contemporary comics as good as Watchmen or the Moore/Bissette/Totleben Swamp Thing.

Jim

[Julian Lytle]

To add something to this, in the Morrison doc, Morrison recounts a story about writing after Moore and trying to contact him. Moore dissed him.


 

And you know in the doc Grant doesn't say anything about him in anything ill, he just keeps on talking.