I don't get it

[Derek Coward]

There is an interesting thread over in the 11OC forum http://bullpenbulletinspodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=11118.0 that I want to comment on but after 8 or 9 pages of comments, nobody is going to pay attention to what I have to say. So I decided to start my own thread in a forum nobody is going to pay attention to.

The whole thread of discussion started with Alan Moore pooh-poohing the idea of Watchmen sequels by saying there are no top-flight creators, middle flight or bottom flight. It seems to me that he is putting all of the creators on the same level. Jason Aaron takes offense at that (I guess because he thinks he doesn't belong on the same level as other people in the industry? I don't know that part wasn't very clear.) and tells Alan Moore to go fuck himself.

A lot of people are giving Aaron attaboys all around because they are sick of Moore's seemingly constant sniping at the industry. I am only guessing that a lot of them are agreeing with Aaron when he says "As a fan, I'd just rather not support someone who so blatantly insults me and my friends."

Just a few months ago, Darwyn Cooke for all intents and purposes called 45 year old comic book fans "perverts", and no one had a problem with that? In fact I was told I was overreacting because that's not what he meant.

So if we take a look at meaning, how many people actually looked for the meaning in Alan Moore's original statement, which boiled down to "Creators should want to create their own properties instead of always wanting to work with someone else's." This is pretty much the same thing that Kirkman said in his manifesto (which I still contend had horrible sound quality that was overlooked by some of the same people who complain when podcasters sniff or say um) and is also very similar to Warren Ellis and his Painting Houses thing.

Why is telling creators to create such a bad thing?

Like I said, I don't get it.

[Wood]

There is an interesting thread over in the 11OC forum http://bullpenbulletinspodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=11118.0 that I want to comment on but after 8 or 9 pages of comments, nobody is going to pay attention to what I have to say. So I decided to start my own thread in a forum nobody is going to pay attention to.

The whole thread of discussion started with Alan Moore pooh-poohing the idea of Watchmen sequels by saying there are no top-flight creators, middle flight or bottom flight. It seems to me that he is putting all of the creators on the same level. Jason Aaron takes offense at that (I guess because he thinks he doesn't belong on the same level as other people in the industry? I don't know that part wasn't very clear.) and tells Alan Moore to go fuck himself.

A lot of people are giving Aaron attaboys all around because they are sick of Moore's seemingly constant sniping at the industry. I am only guessing that a lot of them are agreeing with Aaron when he says "As a fan, I'd just rather not support someone who so blatantly insults me and my friends."

Just a few months ago, Darwyn Cooke for all intents and purposes called 45 year old comic book fans "perverts", and no one had a problem with that? In fact I was told I was overreacting because that's not what he meant.

So if we take a look at meaning, how many people actually looked for the meaning in Alan Moore's original statement, which boiled down to "Creators should want to create their own properties instead of always wanting to work with someone else's." This is pretty much the same thing that Kirkman said in his manifesto (which I still contend had horrible sound quality that was overlooked by some of the same people who complain when podcasters sniff or say um) and is also very similar to Warren Ellis and his Painting Houses thing.

Why is telling creators to create such a bad thing?

Like I said, I don't get it.

I don't see too many people in that 8/9 page thread taking issue with THAT part of Moore's message. I think a lot of people don't understand why Moore would go so far as to say there are NO (as in absolute) top tier, middle tier or lower tier creators in comics today. Moore is a master of his words, he's as carefully crafted a wordsmith as is walking the Earth. So if his main message was just to say that creators today should create their own stuff, why not just say that? Why belittle an entire industry of people on a base level. How can that not obscure the underlying message?

[miscatonic]

I completely agree with Wood. Moore has an ability with words few possess and yet his thoughts were recorded the way they were.

Either he meant what he said or...he meant what he said. I have never been a fan of Moore personally and his writing is typically at a level that seeks to stretch me in a way I don't want to always be stretched. He's done a lot for the medium and it is now time for him to step aside so others can carry the torch. Good riddance.

[Derek Coward]

I don't see too many people in that 8/9 page thread taking issue with THAT part of Moore's message. I think a lot of people don't understand why Moore would go so far as to say there are NO (as in absolute) top tier, middle tier or lower tier creators in comics today. Moore is a master of his words, he's as carefully crafted a wordsmith as is walking the Earth. So if his main message was just to say that creators today should create their own stuff, why not just say that? Why belittle an entire industry of people on a base level. How can that not obscure the underlying message?

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/09/09/alan-moore-speaks-watchmen-2-to-adi-tantimedh/

"When Dave Gibbons phoned me up, he assured me that these prequels and sequels would be handled by ‘the industry’s top-flight talents’.  Now, I don’t think that the contemporary industry actually has a ‘top-flight’ of talent.  I don’t think it’s even got a middle-flight or a bottom-flight of talent.  I mean, like I say, there may be people out there who would still be eager to have their name attached to WATCHMEN even if it was in terms of “Yes, these are the people who murdered WATCHMEN”.  I don’t want to see that happen."

Most of his invective is directed at the business people in charge of Warner, but in that section he is talking about a group of people who he referred as "hacks". It seems to me that in his mind (which I don't really know) there are two people out there people with talent and hacks. He lumps all of the talented people in one tier. I don't see what the big deal is about that.

I still contend that what Cooke said was a lot worse and in that instance, almost everyone has agreed with him.

[Wood]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/09/09/alan-moore-speaks-watchmen-2-to-adi-tantimedh/

"When Dave Gibbons phoned me up, he assured me that these prequels and sequels would be handled by ‘the industry’s top-flight talents’.  Now, I don’t think that the contemporary industry actually has a ‘top-flight’ of talent.  I don’t think it’s even got a middle-flight or a bottom-flight of talent.  I mean, like I say, there may be people out there who would still be eager to have their name attached to WATCHMEN even if it was in terms of “Yes, these are the people who murdered WATCHMEN”.  I don’t want to see that happen."

Most of his invective is directed at the business people in charge of Warner, but in that section he is talking about a group of people who he referred as "hacks". It seems to me that in his mind (which I don't really know) there are two people out there people with talent and hacks. He lumps all of the talented people in one tier. I don't see what the big deal is about that.

I still contend that what Cooke said was a lot worse and in that instance, almost everyone has agreed with him.

I'm not sure how to parse the Cooke vs. Moore thing. This particular discussion wasn't about Moore as much as it was about Jason Aaron telling Alan Moore to go fuck himself in a very public manner. That brought Moore's comments (which were the impetus for Aaron's vitriol) back into the limelight. When Moore made those comments initially, I remember a lot of people just shrugging saying, "Oh that's just Alan being Alan." I think the discussion NOW has been more in couching that fair is fair.

I'm cool with whatever people feel about this. But my take is that, if you have an issue with whether Aaron should have said what he did, then you better also ask what good it did for Alan Moore to say what he said. I think both sets of comments paint both men in less than flattering lights. But that's just me.

[Derek Coward]

I completely agree with Wood. Moore has an ability with words few possess and yet his thoughts were recorded the way they were.

Either he meant what he said or...he meant what he said. I have never been a fan of Moore personally and his writing is typically at a level that seeks to stretch me in a way I don't want to always be stretched. He's done a lot for the medium and it is now time for him to step aside so others can carry the torch. Good riddance.

So is it safe to assume that by saying "carrying the torch" you mean "revisit the same old stories and concepts from 25 years ago"? I have read Scalped by Jason Aaron and I have read Wolverine by Jason Aaron. One is a great piece of work, the other is just another superhero story. Twenty years from now, guess which one Jason Aaron will be more known for, his original creation or someone else's?

[Derek Coward]

I'm cool with whatever people feel about this. But my take is that, if you have an issue with whether Aaron should have said what he did, then you better also ask what good it did for Alan Moore to say what he said. I think both sets of comments paint both men in less than flattering lights. But that's just me.

The way I understand it is that Alan Moore was asked for his opinions and Jason Aaron decided to share his unbidden.

[Wood]

The way I understand it is that Alan Moore was asked for his opinions and Jason Aaron decided to share his unbidden.

What does that have to do with whether what they said was appropriate or put them in the best light?

I can go on our show and say something completely douchey, unsolicited. You can be a guest on a show and be asked a direct question, where you respond with something completely douchey. Is either of us any less of a douche for saying it? 

[Derek Coward]

What does that have to do with whether what they said was appropriate or put them in the best light?

I can go on our show and say something completely douchey, unsolicited. You can be a guest on a show and be asked a direct question, where you respond with something completely douchey. Is either of us any less of a douche for saying it? 

If I go on your show and am asked a question that based on previous statements by me is almost certain to elict a response some might consider douchey, then that is way different than if you go and just unload the Douche Gun*.

One shows malice of forethought and the other is an off the cuff response. I think purposely being a douche is worse than being an accidental douche. And just by typing that, I am willing to soften my stance on Darwyn Cooke because it was an off the cuff slur. See, debate can change minds.

*I have to use the term Douche Gun more often. 

[Wood]

If I go on your show and am asked a question that based on previous statements by me is almost certain to elict a response some might consider douchey, then that is way different than if you go and just unload the Douche Gun*.

One shows malice of forethought and the other is an off the cuff response. I think purposely being a douche is worse than being an accidental douche. And just by typing that, I am willing to soften my stance on Darwyn Cooke because it was an off the cuff slur. See, debate can change minds.

*I have to use the term Douche Gun more often. 

Fair. Yet, Moore's douchey comment wasn't directed at those he seemingly is, or should be upset about. Had he reacted to that question and lambasted the publishers or the editors or the bean counters, I could've understood that. But he instead opted to make an emphatic point, leaving no room for uncertainty, that he didn't think there were top tier creators working in comics today.

To each, his own. I honestly understand Moore's PERSONAL motivations for being unhappy with the industry, not wanting (or caring) about Watchmen spinoffs, and not thinking much is being done to innovate in mainstream comics. I also understand Aaron's PERSONAL motivations for being hurt when he came to realize that at best his hero doesn't give a shit about his work and at worst thinks it's dung. THAT SAID, I don't think either comported themselves well in reaction to their personal feelings. And I don't see how either person's comments a) helps them, b) changes things, or c) helps the industry.

[Derek Coward]

Fair. Yet, Moore's douchey comment wasn't directed at those he seemingly is, or should be upset about. Had he reacted to that question and lambasted the publishers or the editors or the bean counters, I could've understood that. But he instead opted to make an emphatic point, leaving no room for uncertainty, that he didn't think there were top tier creators working in comics today.

To each, his own. I honestly understand Moore's PERSONAL motivations for being unhappy with the industry, not wanting (or caring) about Watchmen spinoffs, and not thinking much is being done to innovate in mainstream comics. I also understand Aaron's PERSONAL motivations for being hurt when he came to realize that at best his hero doesn't give a shit about his work and at worst thinks it's dung. THAT SAID, I don't think either comported themselves well in reaction to their personal feelings. And I don't see how either person's comments a) helps them, b) changes things, or c) helps the industry.

I agree they are both acting like children. One is a teenager who has outgrown the toys he used to adore, the other is much younger and is throwing a temper tantrum because the teenager called him a "baby".  However, I think there is a difference between saying "Do your own shit and quit copying me" and "Go fuck yourself."

[Wood]

I agree they are both acting like children. One is a teenager who has outgrown the toys he used to adore, the other is much younger and is throwing a temper tantrum because the teenager called him a "baby".  However, I think there is a difference between saying "Do your own shit and quit copying me" and "Go fuck yourself."

Ah! Of THAT we agree.

Ultimately though what makes me cringe about these discussions is the defense of one side and complete admonition of the other. It's hard for folks to separate the behavior from the underlying motivation from kernels of truth that are buried within the words.

[Wei]

I think I'm more with Derek on this one.  Moore wasn't bashing current creators, he was taking a shot at the companies by saying that they are holding the leash too tight.  The bit about there being no top, middle, or lower tier was all about that.  There can be no tiers when the creators are held back by the companies they work for.

That's not to say that there is no creation going on.  However, Moore seems to be saying that the companies are stifling creativity too much (for the sake of the all-mighty dollar - implied).

[judekill]

Wood you have on more than one occasion criticised anyone backing up Moore and disagreeing with Aaron. Is it OK if I actually agree with Moore's summation of whether there really is much of a difference in quality among superhero creators. I really like Geoff Johns writing but that's about it. I disagree with you, I hear what you are saying though-You personally feel they are both wrong, I don't. I don't even find Aaron's rant that off-putting. I guess I applaud both men for speaking their mind and not worrying whether or not they are going to win the Lady Bing trophy. It's not fan worshipping, I just don't disagree with Moore that there is a deafening amount of mediocrity with the big two's output.

[Wood]

Wood you have on more than one occasion criticised anyone backing up Moore and disagreeing with Aaron. Is it OK if I actually agree with Moore's summation of whether there really is much of a difference in quality among superhero creators. I really like Geoff Johns writing but that's about it. I disagree with you, I hear what you are saying though-You personally feel they are both wrong, I don't. I don't even find Aaron's rant that off-putting. I guess I applaud both men for speaking their mind and not worrying whether or not they are going to win the Lady Bing trophy. It's not fan worshipping, I just don't disagree with Moore that there is a deafening amount of mediocrity with the big two's output.

Disagreement makes the world go round judekill, believe what you want, 'sall good by me. And just to be clear here, I don't have a problem with taking a side here with the underlying arguments. I do, however, find someone who finds fault with Aaron's choice of speaking out but not holding Moore's feet over that same fire illogical to the nth degree.

[judekill]

Disagreement makes the world go round judekill, believe what you want, 'sall good by me. And just to be clear here, I don't have a problem with taking a side here with the underlying arguments. I do, however, find someone who finds fault with Aaron's choice of speaking out but not holding Moore's feet over that same fire illogical to the nth degree.

Fair enough; in an attempt to curtail any illogical thoughts or possibly send irrationality past the Nth degree, I will agree to support both men for their fiery outbursts. At first I was critical of Aaron but now I support his passionate but ill-advised criticsm of Moore. No holding back, Hearts on your sleeve and Full Steam Ahead!! It's like getting to watch a Hulk vs. Thing fight.