Eric Powell on Diversity in Comics

[Hassan T]

That is basically what we've doing with TV in this thread and we've been talking about the main broadcast networks. If we go beyond the scripted content they offer in primetime to include scripted daytime programming, non-scripted programming (which covers everything from news to sports), cable comedies, movies and dramas, etc. TV gets even more diverse.

There are reasons to include Vertigo and other imprints and reasons to exclude them. They're imprints for a reason and that status separates their content from that of the main publisher. Some of them also offer very different contracts than what Marvel and DC proper offer. For example, an ICON book like Criminal isn't financed or published the same way Marvel's superhero content is financed and published.

Jim

I disagree about taking out Vertigo since they are the "prime-time" shows for DC when it comes to trades. DC is the company that is publishing them, but they do so under a separate imprint. Also, they are non-superhero books and some are even owned by the creators (not the same as an indy, but still). Don't they deserve to be part of the discussion of diversity in comics?

[Hassan T]

I couldn't agree more. It was a terrible choice.

That's true but supporting creator-owned work and supporting diversity in comics aren't mutually exclusive propositions either. You don't have to make the choice to do one or the other. Supporting non-superhero content published by the Big 2 is still supporting diverse subject matter in comics.

Jim

Then you and I are on the same page.

[Farrell]

Taking away the creator-owned material (largely, Vertigo and the non-superhero parts of Wildstorm), what are you left with? Jonah Hex and an ocean of long underwear. Thanks, but I stand by the TV analogy.

Why would you take it away?  They publish that stuff, don't they?  Would you divide up NBC in the same fashion?  They show what they show.  DC publishes what they publish.

Since I'm enjoying far more entertainment on television now than ever before, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I wish I was enjoying comics nearly as much as I'm enjoying television these days.   

In case it wasn't clear, I'm mostly talking about network television.  Which is the television that garners much larger audiences.  For all the acclaim that a show like The Sopranos received, it would have been a middle of the road NBC show as far as the number of viewers is concerned.  When you throw in cable stations, yes, there is more diversity.  And more quality.

[Hassan T]

Why would you take it away?  They publish that stuff, don't they?  Would you divide up NBC in the same fashion?  They show what they show.  DC publishes what they publish.

I agree.

[Farrell]

I'm finding that hard to believe unless you're including Vertigo. Admittedly, both Marvel and DC look more diverse if we include their imprints and we shouldn't act as if these big publishers have no diversity in their lineup because they do. For example, Marvel publishes quite a few adapted works, including adaptations of the Ender books, Oz books, Stephen King novels, classics, etc. They also have titles under the Icon imprint and they occasionally dip their toes into horror. DC has Vertigo, Jonah Hex and... um... help me out, folks.

However, I think you're underselling the diversity on network TV these days. Whether you like that programming or not is a different story but in terms of scripted content alone, the 5 broadcast networks offer everything from cop shows, legal dramas and medical dramas to comedies with a variety of subjects and settings, shows about the supernatural, science fiction, spies, superheroes, high school, politics, etc. Overall, there's a much wider range of subject matter than what we see from Marvel and DC (sans imprints).

Yes, as I wrote in my reply to Steve, I'm including Vertigo, et al.  If we're going to compare a publisher's output to a network's output, it makes no sense to me why we'd exclude half of one and none of the other.

This has never been about a lack of diversity, for me.  It's about a lack of diversity among the highest selling product.  There are lots of comics covering a myriad of genres.  Very few people buy them.  There are lots of movies and television shows that aren't about cops or hospitals, but very rarely are they at the top of the ratings either.  The top 20 shows are dominated, and have been for years, by variations on a handful of tried and true formulas.  Just like comic books.  Television might be a little bit better than comics, when a hit like Lost comes along, but not so much that I agree with holding it up as a beacon of diversity.  I think comics should aspire to be MORE diverse than (network) television.

[Farrell]

I thought the male-rape gag was such bad taste. It doesn't help sell comics the same way that Brevoort's tweets doesn't.

I couldn't agree more. It was a terrible choice.

But very much in keeping with Powell's sense of humor.  Like Dave said, that video felt, in some ways, like The Goon come to life.   In some ways that makes him a poor ambassador for comics diversity, but in another way it kinda exemplifies the non-corporate, no compromise potential of creator owned material.

[Jeppe]

Great (related) blog posts from Skottie Young and Steve Niles. Go read them!

[JimN]

I disagree about taking out Vertigo since they are the "prime-time" shows for DC when it comes to trades. DC is the company that is publishing them, but they do so under a separate imprint. Also, they are non-superhero books and some are even owned by the creators (not the same as an indy, but still). Don't they deserve to be part of the discussion of diversity in comics?

Sure, they do and as I said, there are reasons to include Vertigo and other imprints and reasons to exclude them. I have no problem putting them into the discussion but because they are an imprint, technically they aren't DC comics, they're Vertigo comics. The whole point of the imprint is to distinguish Vertigo as a separate brand. Consequently, I think they can be included or excluded in a discussion of diversity from the Big 2.

I hope that made sense.

Jim

[JimN]

Yes, as I wrote in my reply to Steve, I'm including Vertigo, et al.  If we're going to compare a publisher's output to a network's output, it makes no sense to me why we'd exclude half of one and none of the other.

This has never been about a lack of diversity, for me.  It's about a lack of diversity among the highest selling product.  There are lots of comics covering a myriad of genres.  Very few people buy them.  There are lots of movies and television shows that aren't about cops or hospitals, but very rarely are they at the top of the ratings either.  The top 20 shows are dominated, and have been for years, by variations on a handful of tried and true formulas.  Just like comic books.  Television might be a little bit better than comics, when a hit like Lost comes along, but not so much that I agree with holding it up as a beacon of diversity.  I think comics should aspire to be MORE diverse than (network) television.

That's a fine way to look at it (and there's no sarcasm intended there). I think this television analogy is steering us off the subject anyway.

However, I would say this isn't just about a lack of diversity among the highest selling product but also among the two main suppliers of comics. Sorry, I know you probably realize that. I'm just trying to clarify where I'm coming from...

But very much in keeping with Powell's sense of humor.  Like Dave said, that video felt, in some ways, like The Goon come to life.   In some ways that makes him a poor ambassador for comics diversity, but in another way it kinda exemplifies the non-corporate, no compromise potential of creator owned material.

True, but my concern is that it can be a turn-off for people who don't read such material by reinforcing negative stereotypes about creator-owned comics, which is why it does make Powell a poor ambassador for comics diversity. It's a little like telling someone, "Comics can be diverse! There's more out there than just superheroes!" and then handing them R. Crumb's infamous, incestuous Joe Blow as their first example. Good intentions, bad idea...

Jim

[jonny the homicidal drummer]

I thought it was hilarious and made alot of sense

but people are right, rape jokes and insulting most of the fan base and creators probably won't help much

it does need to be talked about more and this is certainly one way to do it
also DC started Vertigo, a very diverse and amazing line,  so they deserve some credit

I don't fault the creators trying to make a living suckling the big 2 teet either, I work for a heartless corporation too and I'm in human services

[deadcowaroma]

but people are right, rape jokes and insulting most of the fan base and creators probably won't help much

Coddling the fan base and telling them it's ok to buy 95% superhero books doesn't help much either though. The way I see it, both methods are equally effective... which is to say, not very. The people who get offended by these insults won't respond to the softened version either. It doesn't matter how you frame the message, they just won't leave their comfort zone.

[Kenney]

Great (related) blog posts from Skottie Young and Steve Niles. Go read them!

I love Skottie's take on this.

[BobBretall]

but people are right, rape jokes and insulting most of the fan base and creators probably won't help much

I can see the rape jokes being offensive (though done humorously, I personally am not offended by things like this done for humorous intent to make a satirical point).

What I STILL don't get is how so many people are saying he is insulting the fan base.

He's satirizing publishers (and to some extent creators who are "going super-hero" in order to make a living wage).

How is this an insult to readers?   Readers read mostly what the publishers push out (making up 80% of the direct market) and what the shops put on their racks.

Readers: Don't take it as a personal attack, and if you've read some non-super-hero books in your day, you're cool.  If you've NEVER read a comic that didn't feature a super-hero, maybe try something different every now and again, but you DO NOT need to stop reading super-heroes.

Hey, I LOVE cheeseburgers, but I don't eat them for every meal every day.  I love Action movies, but I also watch comedies, dramas, westerns, musicals.

You don't have to take any of the comments as an ALL or NOTHING.   Just that having a bit of diversity in any aspect of your life is a good thing.

[jonny the homicidal drummer]

Coddling the fan base and telling them it's ok to buy 95% superhero books doesn't help much either though. The way I see it, both methods are equally effective... which is to say, not very. The people who get offended by these insults won't respond to the softened version either. It doesn't matter how you frame the message, they just won't leave their comfort zone.

I'm not saying coddling is the answer either

I was that fan youre referring to 5-6 years ago and some nice people said "hey when you reach for that 3rd spiderman title, maybe pick up powers instead, it amazing and needs support"

awareness is key, not bitterness and defamation

Still think this was hilarious though, and well poduced!

[deadcowaroma]

I'm not saying coddling is the answer either

I was that fan youre referring to 5-6 years ago and some nice people said "hey when you reach for that 3rd spiderman title, maybe pick up powers instead, it amazing and needs support"

awareness is key, not bitterness and defamation

Still think this was hilarious though, and well poduced!

I think you might be discounting the power of peer pressure though. I guess it all depends on the type of people seeing the message. Some people need a rough kick in the ass to change their ways.

[Wood]

On the 11 O'Closcars ep I went on a little mini-rant where I begged fans not to take offense when someone brings up something critical about the industry, and that it's NOT a direct insult to YOU (the fan). This fits to my mind. The only people that should be upset are the people Eric is calling out. Mayhap the truth hurts? 

[Kenney]

The only people that should be upset are the people Eric is calling out. Mayhap the truth hurts? 

Would this have offended you however many years ago, when you were still kicking it mainly Marvel?

The only thing that would upset readers of mostly mainstream books is the tone, because he never really says, or implies, readers of superhero books are stupid (which is a sentiment I do see online -- which is lame), or creators of superhero books are stupid (again, something seen, something also lame). The only direct jab he throws is aimed at Disney and WB.

[Wood]

Would this have offended you however many years ago, when you were still kicking it mainly Marvel?

The only thing that would upset readers of mostly mainstream books is the tone, because he never really says, or implies, readers of superhero books are stupid (which is a sentiment I do see online -- which is lame), or creators of superhero books are stupid (again, something seen, something also lame). The only direct jab he throws is aimed at Disney and WB.

I don't know if it would've offended me, or if it would have caused me to look harder at my own buying preferences. I didn't have a justifiable reason for being a Zombie, it just "was." As soon as I started getting to know other peeps who were into comics as an adult, I almost immediately began rabidly pursuing other stuff outside of Marvel (first DC, then Image, then true small press stuff, etc...), and have never looked back.

[BobBretall]

On the 11 O'Closcars ep I went on a little mini-rant where I begged fans not to take offense when someone brings up something critical about the industry, and that it's NOT a direct insult to YOU (the fan).

EXACTLY!!!!!!     

[Dave Faust]

i'm all for diversity, but after watching the video (which was fucking awesome) i'm kinda guilty i'm focusing on a superhero story rather than something non-superhero.

powell makes it sound so "romantic", and yet so punk, i can't help but feel a little peer pressure. (by romantic, i mean the way westerns are "romantic".)


-mike

I don't think anybody should ever feel guilty about the books they read and enjoy. It ain't Catholicism, it's comics. I thought the video was childish and annoying, save for the last section, specifically 5:48 to 6:09. Still looking forward to reading Powell's Godzilla though.