Eric Powell on Diversity in Comics

[Farrell]

I am not sure I understand the point you are making with these examples.

You have to read the rest of the thread for the context.

[Julian Lytle]

Does Jersey Shore have higher ratings than Mad Men? Yes. Is that something the televission industry should aspire to? I think we can all agree that the answer is no.

Real talk Jersey Shore is one of the greatest moments of reality television genius in the history of the genre.

[Kenney]

Real talk Jersey Shore is one of the greatest moments of reality television genius in the history of the genre.

 

[Jordan]

I am not sure I understand the point you are making with these examples. CBS is on top with a group of tired formula highly derivative shows....and that's a good thing?  Apart from the Good Wife and NPH on HIMYM, I don't recall seeing CBS being criticically received in the form of reviews or televison award nominations.

  

Who cares if these shows are critically awarded; clearly people like them and watch them.  They may be formulaic and whatnot, but at the core, they are well made and entertain people.  Thats not a bad thing, thats what every kind of media should aim for; if you can't entertain me, I'm not going to stick around for your treatise on the human condition.  

[Greg Leclair (greg1ca)]

Real talk Jersey Shore is one of the greatest moments of reality television genius in the history of the genre.

OK....well...really? OK, fine. Granted that reality tv is a new genre, I am amazed anyone would consciously use the words "greatest moments" or "genius" to describe it. If you truly enjoy watching it, god love you. As an entry into the the medium of television I expect it will be forgotten quickly.

But that was not MY point. Jersy Shore and the CBS evening line up as you point out consists of largely the same brands of shows about law enforcement and is not particularly challenging tv (the "Batman books of TV" if you will). HBO, SHowtime, AMC, FX and the like at least seem to be trying to create tv that will challenge the viewer on some level.

In comics terms, same thing. There is nothing wrong with Batman or X-Men, but there should also continue to be other comics channels that provide other options that hopefully challenge the reader a bit. 

To me, Mr. Powell and company are calling for more diverse comics "channels".

[Dave Faust]

I think Powell's doing the right thing: Option #3 - Continue to do what he does AND mock the mainstream mentality. Yea, it's not nice, but I think people are discounting the power of peer pressure. His comments (and some others before him) are shaping what is basically Cool People's Comics. "Have fun with your Batman and Spider-man, but if you want to be a trend setter, pick up The Goon, The Walking Dead, etc." I think people would be surprised by how many converts this message will get.

I don't think that will work in comics, which as a medium is already pretty marginalized. It would be like piling mockery on top of mockery.

[Wood]

Real talk Jersey Shore is one of the greatest moments of reality television genius in the history of the genre.

[Dean S.]

I think this all just comes down to any form of entertainment for the masses is going to be a little dumbed down.  That would go for Marvel/DC superhero comics, network TV, NYT bestselling novels, etc.  Those things can all be entertaining as a way to unplug your brain and just go with it for awhile, but I don't think anyone is going to shake a James Patterson novel around and call it awesome.

The really good art in any medium is going to be more esoteric and just won't appeal to the masses because they don't have the sophistication to appreciate it the way the hardcore fans will. 

And, for making fun of fans.....I don't see anything with making fun of people who ONLY read X-Men comics or ONLY watch the Office or ONLY read Star Wars novels.  If you're doing any of those things exclusively, you're simply not well rounded and folks can poke fun at you. 

[JimN]

I hope it's a good one!

Thanks. I saw The King's Speech and I thought it was very good.

... and now back to our regularly scheduled thread...

Jim

[Dave Faust]

And, for making fun of fans.....I don't see anything with making fun of people who ONLY read X-Men comics or ONLY watch the Office or ONLY read Star Wars novels.  If you're doing any of those things exclusively, you're simply not well rounded and folks can poke fun at you. 

I like sticking it to dumbasses as much as the next guy, I'm an elitist snobby bastard and damned proud of it. I just don't think that's the way to get new readers.

[deadcowaroma]

I like sticking it to dumbasses as much as the next guy, I'm an elitist snobby bastard and damned proud of it. I just don't think that's the way to get new readers.

The thing is though that it's not a direct attack. "You're dumb if you only read superhero comics" isn't the message. It's more like "isn't it dumb that there are way more superhero comics available than everything else?"

[Jay Tomio]

The really good art in any medium is going to be more esoteric and just won't appeal to the masses because they don't have the sophistication to appreciate it the way the hardcore fans will. 

I lack the sophistication to articulate how big of a load I think that is.

[Wood]

The really good art in any medium is going to be more esoteric and just won't appeal to the masses because they don't have the sophistication to appreciate it the way the hardcore fans will. 

Sorry Dean but that's a HUGE overstatement. While I think it's 100% true that sales and commercial appeal don't EQUATE to quality, they also aren't anathema to it. LOTS of things that are popular are also top notch examples of their work. 

[Julian Lytle]

The next time I see you I'll explain why.

[Jordan]

The really good art in any medium is going to be more esoteric and just won't appeal to the masses because they don't have the sophistication to appreciate it the way the hardcore fans will.  

Really?  Come ON.  Great works can speak to anybody otherwise they aren't great; they are just muddy, confusing and obtuse. 

[AztecLos]

The really good art in any medium is going to be more esoteric and just won't appeal to the masses because they don't have the sophistication to appreciate it the way the hardcore fans will.  

Well I don't know If that is too true. When VinceB describes a lot of the art in books that he likes I never get the appeal to it. But I don't think he is wrong it just never appealed to me.

It's like when people love Charles Burns art but I don't find it appealing to me at all and don't find it interesting. I love JRJR art but heard someone say why he doesn't like his stuff but I don't think he is a person that doesn't get art.

I myself don't dig Charles Burns, Alan Davies, Frank Quietly art but I like JRJR, Carlos Pacheco, Joe Mad, Micheal Turner art. And I don't think I feel I am missing out on anything by not seeing that "esoteric" art as appealing.

[Dean S.]

Sorry Dean but that's a HUGE overstatement. While I think it's 100% true that sales and commercial appeal don't EQUATE to quality, they also aren't anathema to it. LOTS of things that are popular are also top notch examples of their work.  

What I'm saying is that it's a moving target.  I think there are a LOT of people on this board where even if most comics came to be more along the lines of what Vertigo or Image put out, we'd STILL be looking for whatever was even more fringe and then there would be complaints that we want more of THAT.

It's like in TV.....I'm enough of a TV snob that I don't care for 99% of network programs and think they're written for dumbbells.  I like stuff on HBO or AMC and am pretty happy to settle there, but there's a fringe beyond me who is all into the BBC stuff and now that we (in the US) are getting more BBC stuff, I'm sure that fringe is off looking at what's good on Afghan TV.  

I just think that you can't ever make the fringe into the mainstream and (like you've said on the show), the folks on this board are the fringe of a very fringe hobby.

That's all...  

Edit: And....what I should have added is that as the fringe keeps moving towards even fringier stuff, the folks in the "mainstream" are always going to wonder what's with that weird stuff those guys are reading/watching/listening to.  And as soon as the mainstream people start to enough it...we seek out new pastures.

[Ryan 'gobo' C.]

The next time I see you I'll explain why.

You might need a panel at NYCC to explain why.

[Julian Lytle]

You might need a panel at NYCC to explain why.

T-Shirt Time! GTL! MVP!  FIST PUMP!!!


but back on topic, To sound like skipping record, I do think that now is the time for creators to really branch out and get creative with their comics and get them in front of new eyes. If that works then you can get those people in LCSes then the LCSes will order other things for that new customer base.

[LA Rabbit]

What I STILL don't get is how so many people are saying he is insulting the fan base.

He's satirizing publishers (and to some extent creators who are "going super-hero" in order to make a living wage).

How is this an insult to readers?   Readers read mostly what the publishers push out (making up 80% of the direct market) and what the shops put on their racks.

Readers: Don't take it as a personal attack, and if you've read some non-super-hero books in your day, you're cool.  If you've NEVER read a comic that didn't feature a super-hero, maybe try something different every now and again, but you DO NOT need to stop reading super-heroes.

As usual, I don't think I did an adequate job laying out my point.  I was trying to convey that if Mr. Powell wanted to sell more comics, I think his approach was not well calibrated to attract the most likely potential buyers.  Admittedly my two tier system was too simplistic in that I ignored a potential group that KW! suggested¹:  Group 3 - people who already buy creator-owned/indy².  I discounted that group but maybe that is the easiest group to sell to.  Given the current number of creator-owned comic sales, I don't think the Group 3 has enough individuals in it but I don't know.  In regard to Group 3, I think his message seems to be on target as calculated by the response on this thread. 

I think most of the people posting here are in Group 3, so for me it isn't a question of his video offending you, me³ or anyone else, it is a question of who would be persuaded by his points.  I still maintain that getting the group 2 type (Capes and Cowls, Big 2 fans) is the most natural next audience⁴.  If that is group, why risk getting their backs up at all.  It starts with the negative (a funny lampoon of the publishers) before it goes positive.  I just think that is too risky.  Even with the Big 2 fanbase, there ain't that many of them so I don't think you want to risk it.  Even if those people should have thicker skins, you get the customers you have, not the ones you want.

I do think a pitch similar to Mr. Bryant's has a better chance of success.  If you like X, you might want to try that.  A cherry-picked example⁵, on the last episode of 11 O'Clock comics, Mr. Wood talked about Meanwhile as a logical, comic-book successor to the Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books.  It sounded great, so I bought a copy.  I took it home and told my wife (who reads a few comic books) and she was also interested in it because of the choose-your-own-adventure hook.  If you like X, try Y.       

I guess he could be trying to pitch the comic book stores themselves (who actually are the ones that buy the books from Diamond), in which case maybe his irreverent tone is the best option.  However, it appears to me that the end customers still drive the sales.  If I am not mistaken there is a podcast that is always suggesting that I contact my LCS to preorder my indy books if I want to guarantee getting them⁶.  Even if you get them to buy the first issue or two, if they can't move them then you are out of luck.  Although the stores are susceptible to certain marketing tactics that can boost sales to them⁷. 

I am all about people buying more comics, so if this video works then all the better.  Thanks to those of you that hung on till the end of this post. 

¹You live and you learn.  That is why it pays to read the forums.
²Whatever nominclature you want to use for the type of books we are discussing.  On another thread Mr. Bryant did a great breakdown of creator-owned, versus ownership interest, etc, etc.  I didn't want this to get sidetracked as I think we all know the type of book involved.
³On a personal note, I would like to see someone post something that would offend me.  I can think of a few things but they are all highly illegal and so far off the point of comics that I can't imagine anyone doing it.
⁴Eventually the industry will need new readers but most comic book fans are already conditioned to some of the unusual aspects of the hobby that makes them tolerant of those foibles like late books, canceled books, pre-ordering, etc.
⁵Unfortunately for this example, I am more than willing to try new crap and so is my wife, but I think the point still stands.
⁶   C'mon people Comicbookpage podcast, I don't need to tell you that.
⁷Varient covers anyone?