Bendis/Maleev Moon Knight---thoughts

[Farrell]

Also, i should point out that everybody is basing the complete failure of a project on 5 pages! 5 pages! If i came on here and shit all over a Hellboy comic or claimed The Sixth Gun was complete garbage off a 5 page preview, there would be a 10 page thread bashing me but when it's Bendis or Morrison or anybody with clout it's OK to shit all over their work without really backing it up?

For my part, I didn't predict its failure.  I didn't shit on it either.  I read the preview because A) I used to like Moon Knight and B) Bendis has so many fans I keep thinking I must be missing something appealing in his work.

What I found was the same old thing he does every single time I've made the effort to read something he's written, with the same jokes and the same supposedly realistic dialogue that would actually sound moronic if spoken out loud.  My dislike for his style isn't based on how many comics the man sells.  I don't begrudge him his success.  I just wish I could stand the work of the dude writing half of Marvel's major books.

Maybe the rest of the comic will be written in a completely different way and the opening 5 pages was Bendis commenting on how people perceive his comics to read, maybe the rest of comic will be without dialouge and be told using splash pages,  maybe the comic will be written the same way but settle into a different rhythm that you might enjoy, maybe it will all be blank pages, all possibilities but we can't really draw any conclusion yet based on 5 pages!

You forgot to say maybe the rest of the pages would be in Chinese.  C'mon, do you honestly think any of those things are remotely likely?   Besides, a preview that didn't reflect the rest of the work wouldn't be much of a preview, would it?

[Alec B.]

i don't get the whole "too many word balloons" thing either. it seems about in line with most comics nowadays, or at least anything Bendis has done before. Also the patterns in which people talk and the banter between events is Bendis' style, and one he has had for many years, it's what he sets him apart from other writers. why a writer with a distinctive voice in a sea of writers with generic ones is a problem is beyond me.

Also, i should point out that everybody is basing the complete failure of a project on 5 pages! 5 pages! If i came on here and shit all over a Hellboy comic or claimed The Sixth Gun was complete garbage off a 5 page preview, there would be a 10 page thread bashing me but when it's Bendis or Morrison or anybody with clout it's OK to shit all over their work without really backing it up? Maybe the rest of the comic will be written in a completely different way and the opening 5 pages was Bendis commenting on how people perceive his comics to read, maybe the rest of comic will be without dialouge and be told using splash pages,  maybe the comic will be written the same way but settle into a different rhythm that you might enjoy, maybe it will all be blank pages, all possibilities but we can't really draw any conclusion yet based on 5 pages!

Gotta echo this sentiment and not just because this is a Moon Knight book. I mean, it is a preview. I'm cool with people disliking it all they want. It will not get in the way of my own enjoyment or whatever opinion I will hold on it. To completely judge something on a few pages, though...that's a little much.

And mr. malpractice has a point. If someone did this to another book by some smaller writer or artist, they would be getting called out. Bendis though, with his name alone, seems to welcome free criticism without much explanation. Granted, he's big and he is out there much more to criticise, but the guy is still a comic book writer like any other. I used to hold a Bendis bias too, and I used to label him under a specific view point. After taking a look at his recent work though, I still think Bendis is putting out interesting work, and I do not think at all that he is mailing shit in. I think the deal is is that we, as comics readers, tend to put the big guys in a catagory of cynicism. Meaning that we tend to not trust them and think the worst things imaginable about the big guys. That Bendis is just a company man rather than an artist. All of that is fan cynicism though. It's not truth. If that cynical outlook is let go, Bendis becomes the artist again. Have to stop looking at the guy as some evil spokesman but rather as a writer with things to say. If that's done, the outlook changes. At least that has been my experience.

Again, if you don't like it, you don't like it. No big deal. But to just post that this comic sucks w/o reading the whole issue, that's a bit far. I think the 11 o'clock board is better than that.

[Night (Travis) Nurse]

What I found was the same old thing he does every single time I've made the effort to read something he's written, with the same jokes and the same supposedly realistic dialogue that would actually sound moronic if spoken out loud.  My dislike for his style isn't based on how many comics the man sells.  I don't begrudge him his success.  I just wish I could stand the work of the dude writing half of Marvel's major books.

I enjoy the way Bendis writes dialogue for comics. I agree that to call it "realistic" is silly and if it was spoken out loud would sound just god awful. I think movies and comics have a natural dialogue to themselves that exist as well written flowing dialogue in its own context but would sound ridiculous out loud. Take Kevin Smith and his movies. If many of those conversations were out loud in a real place they would be ridiculous. In the confines of the film/setting they are witty and funny and feel natural. If you don’t like that I dare you to print out the dialogue from the famous bar scene in Casablanca between Bogart and Bergman, go to a bar and see how natural it sounds. But when you put it in movie form it's magic. Bendis may not sound "real world" natural but its pretty right for the 616 setting.

My 2 cents, I except change.

N Travis N

[leafinsectman (Dan)]

Well put Travis. I think my issue is mainly with the stop-start repetitive nature of it. I don't think its dumb or anything, just that it sticks out whenever he does it.

"So the Hood has... let me get this straight... so the Hood has gotten a hold of some Infinity Gems."
"Yep, the Hood has gotten a hold of some Infinity Gems."

Its okay the first time but more than 2 per issue and it kinda takes me out of it. Sometimes it fits the story, other times not so much. Its not a deal breaker though, its not exactly something that makes me go Hulk smash. And I have nothing against the people who like it. I'm mostly fine with the rest of his dialogue and like I said earlier, I still love the creative team.

[Kenney]

i don't get the whole "too many word balloons" thing either. it seems about in line with most comics nowadays, or at least anything Bendis has done before. Also the patterns in which people talk and the banter between events is Bendis' style, and one he has had for many years, it's what he sets him apart from other writers. why a writer with a distinctive voice in a sea of writers with generic ones is a problem is beyond me.

Also, i should point out that everybody is basing the complete failure of a project on 5 pages! 5 pages! If i came on here and shit all over a Hellboy comic or claimed The Sixth Gun was complete garbage off a 5 page preview, there would be a 10 page thread bashing me but when it's Bendis or Morrison or anybody with clout it's OK to shit all over their work without really backing it up?

I think it's fine that people are put off by this preview. After all, a preview is there to entice a reader, but it can also have the opposite effect. I personally like what I see. I don't see myself reading it, but I think it's solid at worst. But I get others not really feeling the art or writing.

But, yeah, the word balloon complaint I think is TOTALLY unfounded, but because Bendis sort of has that tag of being wordy, he gets called out for it, when Invincible, Walking Dead, X-Factor, Gotham Central, Strangers in Paradise, or really any modern comic has a similar word amount of balloons.

It's the same same thing with Morrison being tagged as a drugged out crazy writer in everything he writes. Because he has that tag, some people go into his work expecting it to be confusing, or obtuse, and find that.

Also, this sort of shows that creators are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. On the one hand we complain that comics are too quick to read, and thus aren't worth the money. Then, when they are meaty, we're like damn those silly words, I want more art. Granted, I get turned off when I see a gabazillion word balloons myself because I don't think that's the best use of the medium, but I don't see anything egregious in these pages.

Bendis can be wordy (Powers), but this ain't that.

[Jeppe]

I think it was the recent Word Balloon interview where Brubaker said that most comics writers write dialogue with the aim of conveying a realistic conversation within the constraints of a comic book, which essentially means without actually writing out an entire dialogue. Except Bendis.

[JimN]

Again, if you don't like it, you don't like it. No big deal. But to just post that this comic sucks w/o reading the whole issue, that's a bit far. I think the 11 o'clock board is better than that.

To be fair, most of the criticism since the preview pages were posted has been about those pages, not about the whole comic.

Jim

[steve bryant]

i don't get the whole "too many word balloons" thing either. it seems about in line with most comics nowadays, or at least anything Bendis has done before. Also the patterns in which people talk and the banter between events is Bendis' style, and one he has had for many years, it's what he sets him apart from other writers. why a writer with a distinctive voice in a sea of writers with generic ones is a problem is beyond me.

Also, i should point out that everybody is basing the complete failure of a project on 5 pages! 5 pages! If i came on here and shit all over a Hellboy comic or claimed The Sixth Gun was complete garbage off a 5 page preview, there would be a 10 page thread bashing me but when it's Bendis or Morrison or anybody with clout it's OK to shit all over their work without really backing it up?

I can only address my comment on the work, where I said, "...so Bendis is getting paid by the word now?"

To use one of your examples, had you responded to a Hellboy preview by saying "...so Mignola is getting paid by how much ink he uses now?" I would have laughed my ass off. And agreed with you at finding humor in a stylistic truism.

And I'd like to think that eight-time Eisner Award winner Mike Mignola has plenty of clout.

[JimN]

i don't get the whole "too many word balloons" thing either. it seems about in line with most comics nowadays, or at least anything Bendis has done before. Also the patterns in which people talk and the banter between events is Bendis' style, and one he has had for many years, it's what he sets him apart from other writers. why a writer with a distinctive voice in a sea of writers with generic ones is a problem is beyond me.

It's a problem for readers who don't enjoy that distinctive voice.

Also, i should point out that everybody is basing the complete failure of a project on 5 pages! 5 pages! If i came on here and shit all over a Hellboy comic ...

Why would anyone do that? Everyone knows Hellboy comics are awesome.

Jim

[steve bryant]

...so Bendis is getting paid by the word now?

I don't get this at all. Those pages aren't any more wordy than your standard comic. I just flipped through a few issues near me to check, and it falls right in the middle. Especially, when you average out the balloons used over all of the pages (as there are more balloons on the first page, but hardly any on the last two pages).

Oops, I missed this when you initially posted. I'm not talking about the number of word balloons, but about the roundabout path the verbiage takes to convey a point. Some find it central to Bendis' style, quaint, Tarentinoesque, or even realistic. But it's not for everyone, as evidenced by this thread. Although I think we should have an 11 O'Clock Comics Everyone Post Like a Bendis Day (kind of like Talk Like a Pirate Day):

I see your point.

I just don't agree with it.

I want to post about the comic we're talking about and then I want to go home.

And by home, I mean my art studio. And by my art studio, I mean I want to--

[Kenney]

Fair enough. If you don't like Bendis' writing style, I can totally understand that. He's got that Kevin Smith, Diablo Cody, or even Aaron Sorkin thing about him where his writing is so stylized it can over power the characters if you don't groove on it. If it isn't for you, it isn't for you.

My only issue was I thought you, and others, were talking about the actual amount of words used -- which I don't think is excessive at all.

[Matt H.O.W.L.]

To use one of your examples, had you responded to a Hellboy preview by saying "...so Mignola is getting paid by how much ink he uses now?" I would have laughed my ass off. And agreed with you at finding humor in a stylistic truism.

Exactly. 

[malpractice]

I can only address my comment on the work, where I said, "...so Bendis is getting paid by the word now?"

To use one of your examples, had you responded to a Hellboy preview by saying "...so Mignola is getting paid by how much ink he uses now?" I would have laughed my ass off. And agreed with you at finding humor in a stylistic truism.

obviously you were joking, i wasn't including you.

Why would anyone do that? Everyone knows Hellboy comics are awesome.

Sure they are if Richard Corben is drawing them, but otherwise i find them kind of boring.

For my part, I didn't predict its failure.  I didn't shit on it either.  I read the preview because A) I used to like Moon Knight and B) Bendis has so many fans I keep thinking I must be missing something appealing in his work.

You forgot to say maybe the rest of the pages would be in Chinese.  C'mon, do you honestly think any of those things are remotely likely?   Besides, a preview that didn't reflect the rest of the work wouldn't be much of a preview, would it?

i wasn't referring to you as you always were not a Bendis fan, i don't agree with you at all but at least your opinion is consistent. and obviously the blank pages one was facetious but anything else is a possibility. Bendis did the first 2 of them already in his current Avengers run.

[David D.]

What I think is interesting is that Bendis so often gets criticized for having a distinctive, noticable dilogue style, that is perhaps identifiable enough to be parodied.  As if the fact that he is writing it is meant to be an invisible hand.

... And yet a lot of artists get praised for exactly such distinctness in their work.  For having a style that we can recognize without having to check the credits.

 

[steve bryant]

What I think is interesting is that Bendis so often gets criticized for having a distinctive, noticable dilogue style, that is perhaps identifiable enough to be parodied.  As if the fact that he is writing it is meant to be an invisible hand.

... And yet a lot of artists get praised for exactly such distinctness in their work.  For having a style that we can recognize without having to check the credits.

True, but, as with artists, the easily recognized work cuts both ways--just ask Rob Liefeld or Greg Land.

[jdudley]

I think the writing of Bendis can be frustrating in his ensemble work on Avengers titles, but has worked extremely well on books like: Ultimate Spider-Man, Powers, and Daredevil.
In fact, I echo the sentiment that I think it is more a compliment than not that Bendis truly has such a distinct and noticible style. I'm not surprised how many fans dislike this style. But it is very annoying how overtly angry some fans seem to get with Bendis' style when the man is truly a great storyteller and comics writer—even if his style, and particularly his "voice" clearly isn't for everyone.
Not liking his style is perfectly understandable. But someone dismissing Bendis as a hack plain and simple is completley ridiculous and more than a little tiresome in my eyes.

[David D.]

True, but, as with artists, the easily recognized work cuts both ways--just ask Rob Liefeld or Greg Land.

I take your point that to have a disctinctive or strong style may lead to strong reactions, positive and negative. 

But have you noticed that, in some criticism of Bendis' work, it is not just that people don't like the work, but that they also ding him for having a distinctive style at all?

[Farrell]

My only issue was I thought you, and others, were talking about the actual amount of words used -- which I don't think is excessive at all.

There are just as many words in your average Mike Carey or Phil Hester book and I'm big fans of both of them.  So it's not sheer volume, but what he does with them.  Which in my personal opinion (and that's all it is) is not a whole heck of a lot.

But have you noticed that, in some criticism of Bendis' work, it is not just that people don't like the work, but that they also ding him for having a distinctive style at all?

I'm not sure anyone is doing that.  There is definitely an aversion on my part (and for others) to his style, which has a lot to do with me not being interested in his work, but it's his specific style I have a problem with, not that he has one in the first place.  Does that make sense?  

A distinctive voice is a huge plus in my book, but the danger of having a highly distinctive style is that you're going to turn off people while making other people happy.  I will always take that over bland and generic, but that doesn't mean his or anybody else's choices are going to vibe with me.  

I should probably mention that I don't find Bendis' work all that distinctive, either.  Maybe if I only read comics it wouldn't seem as derivative to me as it does (not implying that you only read comics).

i wasn't referring to you as you always were not a Bendis fan, i don't agree with you at all but at least your opinion is consistent.

I have a habit of not giving up on artists I don't care for, especially when a lot of my friends dig him.  I should just dislike his work in silence since, as you say, I haven't liked it in years.  Maybe some day I'll read something I love and I'll be able to offer up some positivity.

[deadcowaroma]

Not liking his style is perfectly understandable. But someone dismissing Bendis as a hack plain and simple is completley ridiculous and more than a little tiresome in my eyes.

People do that? 

[Koete]

Oops, I missed this when you initially posted. I'm not talking about the number of word balloons, but about the roundabout path the verbiage takes to convey a point. Some find it central to Bendis' style, quaint, Tarentinoesque, or even realistic. But it's not for everyone, as evidenced by this thread. Although I think we should have an 11 O'Clock Comics Everyone Post Like a Bendis Day (kind of like Talk Like a Pirate Day):

You think we should have an 11 O'Clock Comics Everyone Post Like a Bendis Day?