Roger Langridge on R-rated superheroes

[Dave Faust]

I think Langridge was talking about Superman appearing in a story that featured the rape of another character's wife.

You mean that story from seven years ago?

Can't wait until he gets to 2005 and discovers All Star Batman and Robin.

[David D.]

I think Langridge was talking about Superman appearing in a story that featured the rape of another character's wife.

And if I could imagine a kid, inspired by a Superman on his lunchbox, if he even finds a comic shop or graphic novel section of a bookstore on his own, skipping past all the actual Superman books to pick up a trade of something called "Identity Crisis", and understanding an off-panel rape then I would agree with his criticism.

(And even then, in MPAA terms Identity Crisis would still likely be PG-13)

[David]

My only issue with the whole 'take a cue from Watchmen and make new characters' is that some might feel jilted by a cheap knockoff.

I was hesitant to post the Langridge quote for fear of setting off another one of those discussions.

Eff 'em.

[Jeppe]

My only issue with the whole 'take a cue from Watchmen and make new characters' is that some might feel jilted by a cheap knockoff.

What about alternative imprints/realities like Marvel MAX though?

[David]

What about alternative imprints/realities like Marvel MAX though?

I have no problem with MAX.

But isn't Langridge poo-pooing that imprint in his quote?

[lugaru]

What exactly has Superman done lately to make him "R rated?"

This is anecdotal since I dont remember the issue but I saw one recently on the stands where some dude was basically skinned alive in a saw torture porn scene by a villain. One of the "real" superman fans (I'm a tourist to his books) might be able to remember which, although this is not what Langridge was referring to but I mean it happens in lots of books.

I have no problem with MAX.

But isn't Langridge poo-pooing that imprint in his quote?

My understanding is that he loves stuff like MAX, so long as it does not tackle mainstream heroes who would otherwise not be R rated. I disagree of course, I frigging love most Max books from Punisher, Terror Inc, Werewolf by Night, Supreme Power, etc.

[thefreakytiki]

After reading Landridge's comments they reminded me of the Kirkman Manefisto regarding the big 2.


The Tiki

[David]

What exactly has Superman done lately to make him "R rated?"

Drinking beer with dad?

[David D.]

Drinking beer with dad?

 

Excellent pull.

[Peter G]

I understand his frustration, but I don't really agree.  What R-rated Spidey, X-Men, Batman or Superman comics are out there?  There's material aimed at adults but there always has been.  A Death in the Family and Dark Knight Returns were some of the first comics I read and I wouldn't consider them to be all ages.   

[Wood]

I appreciate the way he went about articulating the idea, and see validity in the argument. On the other hand, I think he's underestimating the cultural seachange we've undergone in the last 20 years across all forms of entertainment. It's not like comic books are the only thing that's gotten more mature. Take a gander at the top selling video games, which are all incidentally massively larger than anything the comic book industry has mustered in a long time, and most of them (not all) are highly adult, with graphic violence, often laden with profanity and/or sexual content.

I think like many industries, the comic book mainstream market fell prey to running to where the ball is, versus where they wanted it to go. They stopped plotting their own course, and started protecting what they already had.

[Wood]

I'm assuming all of the DAP pictures were shot in landscape? Only way you can fit all he has to offer in a shot.

Well, that's what I heard anyway.

So what, I'm drinking Anaconda Malt Liquor over here? 

[legion of daves]

So what, I'm drinking Anaconda Malt Liquor over here? 

you know what they say... anaconda malt liquor gives you HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[doxinthebox]

I appreciate the way he went about articulating the idea, and see validity in the argument. On the other hand, I think he's underestimating the cultural seachange we've undergone in the last 20 years across all forms of entertainment. It's not like comic books are the only thing that's gotten more mature. Take a gander at the top selling video games, which are all incidentally massively larger than anything the comic book industry has mustered in a long time, and most of them (not all) are highly adult, with graphic violence, often laden with profanity and/or sexual content.

I think like many industries, the comic book mainstream market fell prey to running to where the ball is, versus where they wanted it to go. They stopped plotting their own course, and started protecting what they already had.

i figure that seachange is just what he's questioning...is it really a good thing to have not only a ramp up in the consumption of violence and mature themes, but to have it attached to cultural iconography that is marketed to kids? i know that it should be up to parents to watch what their kids are reading/watching/playing, but it certainly doesn't help those parents when they aren't sure if heavy themes are going to appear in a comic that they remember reading as a child and having it be totally kid friendly.

[Wood]

i figure that seachange is just what he's questioning...is it really a good thing to have not only a ramp up in the consumption of violence and mature themes, but to have it attached to cultural iconography that is marketed to kids? i know that it should be up to parents to watch what their kids are reading/watching/playing, but it certainly doesn't help those parents when they aren't sure if heavy themes are going to appear in a comic that they remember reading as a child and having it be totally kid friendly.

I can definitely see the debate, and as a parent that is seemingly the only one in my neighborhood who doesn't let their 8 year old play Halo or Call of Duty, I empathize with the sociological dilemma. OTOH, the publishers are in the business of selling...and for all the praise an all ages title like Thor: TMA got, it sold for shit. So what kind of message are the consumers sending to the publishers? It's a chicken and egg thing...the critics will say that Marvel/DC aren't selling Thor: TMA because they're not cultivating a new audience of younger readers, while Marvel/DC will say they're trying, but the market just isn't there.

[Kenney]

So what, I'm drinking Anaconda Malt Liquor over here? 

 

[JimN]

I can definitely see the debate, and as a parent that is seemingly the only one in my neighborhood who doesn't let their 8 year old play Halo or Call of Duty, I empathize with the sociological dilemma. OTOH, the publishers are in the business of selling...and for all the praise an all ages title like Thor: TMA got, it sold for shit. So what kind of message are the consumers sending to the publishers? It's a chicken and egg thing...the critics will say that Marvel/DC aren't selling Thor: TMA because they're not cultivating a new audience of younger readers, while Marvel/DC will say they're trying, but the market just isn't there.

Well said but you know as well as I do that there are other issues impacting that sort of thing, particularly the fact that comics are practically trapped in the direct market right now. Thor: TMA arguably didn't sell because it was an out-of-continuity title that was sold through the same channels, and to the same basic (and shrinking) audience, that obsessively consumes Marvel's in-continuity titles. That audience has shown time and time again that their primary interest lies with Marvel's main line of books, particularly with the interconnected uber-stories Marvel currently loves to tell with their cast of soap opera superheroes. If they really want an all-ages book like Thor: TMA to sell and build an audience they need to commit to books like that for much longer than they did, allow them to build an audience and find a way to get them out of the DM and into the hands of new readers. Expecting those readers to just wander into comics shops and find that book among all the rest isn't terribly realistic, especially over the course of, what, 8 months?

Jim

[Wood]

Well said but you know as well as I do that there are other issues impacting that sort of thing, particularly the fact that comics are practically trapped in the direct market right now. Thor: TMA arguably didn't sell because it was an out-of-continuity title that was sold through the same channels, and to the same basic (and shrinking) audience, that obsessively consumes Marvel's in-continuity titles. That audience has shown time and time again that their primary interest lies with Marvel's main line of books, particularly with the interconnected uber-stories Marvel currently loves to tell with their cast of soap opera superheroes. If they really want an all-ages book like Thor: TMA to sell and build an audience they need to commit to books like that for much longer than they did, allow them to build an audience and find a way to get them out of the DM and into the hands of new readers. Expecting those readers to just wander into comics shops and find that book among all the rest isn't terribly realistic, especially over the course of, what, 8 months?

Jim

I 100% agree. As I was crafting my last response, I just kept thinking, "Once again, this all comes down to how problematic the direct market is."
 

[JimN]

I 100% agree. As I was crafting my last response, I just kept thinking, "Once again, this all comes down to how problematic the direct market is."
 

It's a drag, isn't? I want comics to be more popular!

Jim

[Dave Faust]

I can definitely see the debate, and as a parent that is seemingly the only one in my neighborhood who doesn't let their 8 year old play Halo or Call of Duty, I empathize with the sociological dilemma. OTOH, the publishers are in the business of selling...and for all the praise an all ages title like Thor: TMA got, it sold for shit. So what kind of message are the consumers sending to the publishers? It's a chicken and egg thing...the critics will say that Marvel/DC aren't selling Thor: TMA because they're not cultivating a new audience of younger readers, while Marvel/DC will say they're trying, but the market just isn't there.

Granted I know almost nothing about Thor and the current run of Thor books, but it seemed that this Thor:TMA got a lot of love here on the forums, so I'm guessing a fair number of people read and like Thor. What I'm wondering is, how much sex and gore is in the current Thor books that separates them from the TMA series? I'm guessing not that much, unless there's a title out there called Thor: Phallus Dei and he uses Mjolnir like some kind of dildo of divine retribution.

When these debates pop up (last time it was Darwyn Cooke), people tend to bring up just a few titles, mostly Identity Crisis and All Star Batman and Robin. These stories are old and they're only getting older. How much bad, or objectionable stuff is in the books that came out this week from the big 2?