Critiques

[Bluenote77]

OK, I've been banging this idea in my head for awhile now and wanted to know what you guys think.

Since most of us have been posting pretty regularly now and we can probably recognize each others names rather easily, I've been thinking about starting a critique thread.

I've only been hesitant about it because I don't know if the positive aspects would out weigh the negative of doing a critique in a forum environment.  It may not be the best place to try and hold a constructive conversation about how we can help improve each others art. 

For this to work, I think it would be best if people posted an image with an open mind so we can honestly answer the question, "Was this a successful piece?" or "What can I do to improve?"

Critiquing and taking a critique can be a tough thing to do, but I feel that a lot of us post here not so we would get smoke blown up our skirts, but to get feedback so that we can IMPROVE as artists. I don't know how many of us are professionals in the field or just do this in their spare time. Just ask Kyle Latino, I made a comment about one of his paintings, not realizing he was a professional in the field, and probably already knew what I was saying. Also, many of us don't have the opportunity of working in a studio environment where a second pair of eyes can be helpful. Sometimes we need a sounding board to help move past a problem.

I know this was lengthy, but I just want to know what you guys think. If you're interested, I think it can be beneficial, if done correctly. If not, then this thread may just fade aw...aaa...yyyy.......

[AztecLos]

I think it can be good. Heck I live in a small town and it isn't like I can just go somewhere here where they can look over a drawing and get advice on how to improve. 

[doxinthebox]

i would be in for this as well. constructive criticism and feedback would be of great value for someone like me who isn't in the professional world and has very little in the way of "formal education." i respect the folks who have been posting here and would value their insight and suggestions. good call, bluenote! 

[Kyle Latino]

Cool idea, do you prepose we post them in this thread, or add "Critiques" to the thread titles?

(PS, I'm sorry, I don't remember what you are talking about. I hope I wasn't rude.)

[Jon O]

I think this is a great idea.  Not that we can't offer our thoughts on other threads, but if we really want a piece dissected, posting it here would be a great way to say, "Hey, everyone, I want your help".

[mattyleegross]

I like the idea. I think even if you're a pro working in the field, it's not a bad idea to get honest opinions of how people feel about your work.

[qrowdad]

This sounds like a good idea, would you want to limit it to comics images only?

[Bluenote77]

Well it seems like we have some people on board.

I think we should limit it to comic art.  The description for the Drawing Board forum is comic art centric, so we should keep it that way out of respect for out hosts.

Kyle, I had just made a comment about highlights on one of your iPad paintings. You were not rude at all, I just learned later that you worked professionally and was probably aware of what I was saying.
I think we can post the images in this thread. 

If anyone wants to get the ball rolling, feel free to start. I haven't been working as much lately, but I will be participating as well.

Thanks for the input.  Let's start critiquing. 

[MickeyRossi]

Neat idea, I'm in, too.

[AztecLos]

So who's first.

[Jon O]

I'm going to be putting up a few spec pages of the next project Timothy and I are working on.  I've got the three pages pencilled just waiting on Tim's slack ass to get them inked 

[Jon O]

This is the first mock up of my next project, an all ages series entitled Maps.  Timothy and I are the co-creators, and I'm doing the pencils while he handles inking responsibilities.  Any way, we're going through a few of these trial pages and I'd love to hear your opinions on what will make these pages amazing.

[Bluenote77]

Sorry everyone, I've been out in the wilderness, literally, for the past few days. I'm reconnecting with technology for the first time again.

Jon, thanks for being the brave soul to get the process started.

I can definitely read a story from panel to panel. The last panel grabs the viewers' attention by working the action towards the camera.

I do have two questions though. The bird in the 2nd panel feels like there should be some importance placed on it because of the size and detail it has been given. It doesn't seem like it is relevant, but it did get my attention. Also,
I don't know in the second panel if the balloon should be sticking to the character's cheek, or if suppose to be in front of him? The character appears to be in a little bit of a close up in the 2nd panel, but the balloon has stayed the same size.

Again, this isn't meant to be critical of ability, just a second opinion from a different set of eyes that aren't attached to the project.

Thanks again for being the first to jump in. I really appreciate it.  

[Jon O]

All those are valid comments.  Thank you sir, I'm going to get a few more spec pages up before we get started with the real pages.  I'd love to hear every bit of criticism you guys can give.

[Kyle Latino]

@Jon O

I've redrawn a rough to illustrate some of the changes that I would consider.  I know this is a rough page, so the draftsmanship isn't on the table here, so I will comment on the storytelling and composition only.  All in all, it's not a bad page.  Remember, own your choices, never apologize or flitch at a critique.  If my comments don't capture "what you were going for" then forget whatever I've typed.  I really really am a rambling idiot, that takes comics way too seriously.



Panel 1: Good, it sets up the status quo and setting well enough.  Every story, EVERY PAGE, a comic artist must establish the status quo, upset the status quo, and establish a new status quo.  Those are the three acts that must be communicated to make sure that "something" happens on every page.  Every panel is in service to this end.  Anything that does not affect the story or mood is fat that needs to be trimmed, which leads to the second panel.

Panel 2: There isn't enough of a change from panel one to distinguish how the story moves forward or the status quo is upset.  This can be fixed with a closer reaction shot with a more telling expression.  Maybe overlap the face with the bubble, perhaps magnifying the eye in the bubble too.  Almost all of the action on this page takes place in a 2D fashion, there is no depth of axis.  You want to shoot into the action whenever possible, the illusion of depth is all you have in comics.

Panel 3: A wide shot doesn't work here.  It distracts the action with information about the setting, which should really be at the top of the page.  Even if it was a wide shot, make sure the feet are WELL INSIDE the panel.  Also, remember, space equals time in comics.  A large panel indicated more time is taking place in that panel, so why is this a large panel that is pulled back from the action.  The hesitation of poking the bubble is what this panel seems to be about, so define that action in the panel with a mid range shot.  Add an inset or a smaller tight close-up panel to showcase the instant that a delicate touch causes the bubble to pop, upsetting the status quo.  Really figure out how to communicate what causes all the action on the page, as it is now, the panel is ambiguous a cluttered with information on the setting, not the action.

Panel 4: Again, the 2D view of this action downplays the depth and dynamics of the action.  Pull the figure into the foreground with a silhouette, and have some overlapping curlycues to show the bubble moving into the background.

Panel 5: Not a bad panel.  It would be better it pushed the depth with something more substantial in the foreground.  It establishes the new status quo and goal of the character: to chase that bubble thing.

In general, you may want to think about ways to give more information about the setting and background in the first and last panels of your pages.  The Establishing shot and Return shot are where that information goes, not really in the middle of the page.  This may not be valid depending on what pages come before and after this page, but it's still something to think about with other pages.  Much of the nit-picking I've done here question the reasons you have made the choices you have in layout.  It might be a helpful exercise to take a look through a book by your favorite artist and study the pages by asking yourself "WHY" each panel is composted that way.

[TimothyObriant]

Thanks for the in depth breakdown Kyle.  Lots of good stuff in there.  I'm sure Jon O and I will be going over this again tonight.  We've already talked about adding depth to the 2d look so we'll certainly Ibe working on that.  I love the way you explain the establishing shot and page progression.  I'll take that in mind. 

I have the second test page below.  It's one of our action scenes that takes place later in the book.

[Jon O]

Thanks Kyle.  The close up in panel 2 is definitely going to happen.  You had a lot of good insights there especially in relation to time and panel size.  It's something I know but don't always remember to implement if you know what I'm saying.  Timothy has been riding me about getting some more diverse camera angles in my work for quite some time.

This thread is going to be so terrific and helpful!

[qrowdad]

Hi guys, here are some character concepts for a book I will be working on with a writer pal. I hope to post layouts soon. The project is called the Nagual. and it is set in pre-columbian Meso-America. It is basically a mystical/action/drama. the first chunk we are working on is an 8 page intro to see if folks are interested in a project like this. I know it is early but any comments or crits?

[MickeyRossi]

Hi guys, here are some character concepts for a book I will be working on with a writer pal. I hope to post layouts soon. The project is called the Nagual. and it is set in pre-columbian Meso-America. It is basically a mystical/action/drama. the first chunk we are working on is an 8 page intro to see if folks are interested in a project like this. I know it is early but any comments or crits?

Very nice start! I married into a family with Aztec roots, so this really makes me smile.

I've no real specific criticism, I like where its going, but here's something to keep in the back of your head as you develop these.

Ensemble cast character design is very dependent on silhouette and color. The characters should be easily and quickly differentiated from each other. Take a look at this group shot below:



It should be pretty easy to guess who each member of this gang is. You can do this with almost any good group of characters, from the A-team to the Avengers. It's always a good idea to do a quick comparison of your key characters this way. A lot of times, I'll even start with simple silhouettes so that they're different from the beginning.

If you're working in color, you can use that as definition, too (see below). But if you're in black&white or a more realistically rendered approach, where color may be influenced by lighting or mood, it really becomes all about the outline.



Oh, and just in case...

[qrowdad]

Thanx Mickey, I really appreciate the input.

Even though I am aware of the need for strong silhouettes it is a weakness i suffer. NC Wyeth was great at strong silhouettes I think he said something like once you have that worked out most of your work is done.

This first teaser will probably be black & white and may never see print but I would like to color it if there is any interest and maybe tweak it into a web comic.

thanx again