Critiques

[Jon O]

I'm interested in the characters.  Some stand out more strongly than others.  The man holding the staff with the beams radiating for example, seems to be some sort of magic/shaman type.  I think there's strength in being able to immediately identify a character from their look.  I also was drawn to the man with the bowl cut and the small, tight mask.  He's got a mischievous look to him that I hope plays to his personality.  Almost like a Loki type if I can make the analogy.

I would also recommend (and you're probably doing this already) to take your character designs through the penciling and inking phase as well.  It's helpful to see what they look like in a more finished form before making any final calls, and the additional time spent drawing and inking the characters will help you understand how you want to approach them in the comic.

[TimothyObriant]

I like the character designs qrowdad.  The costumes are cool and convincing and immedietly convey a certain amount of information about the setting and local of your story. 

Sometimes I find you draw the characters eyes really high up on the face which shrinks the characters forehead.  Not sure if that's a stylistic choice or not but it stood out to me.  Thanks for sharing, and please post some pages when you get there. 

[AztecLos]

Hi guys, here are some character concepts for a book I will be working on with a writer pal. I hope to post layouts soon. The project is called the Nagual. and it is set in pre-columbian Meso-America. It is basically a mystical/action/drama. the first chunk we are working on is an 8 page intro to see if folks are interested in a project like this. I know it is early but any comments or crits?

You got some cool designs going on there. But are taking it directly from sources or are you taking designs and putting your own spin on them?

I think it would do well to use designs and do your own spin. Much like Jack Kirby did on Thor.

[qrowdad]

Thanks guys for your encouragement and comments. 

Jon O -I normally would take these a bit farther but as I am doing this in my spare time I am behind schedule so I am going jump to layouts and do character clean up after that so I know which characters are specifically needed.

Timothy -thanks for your keen eye the eyes high on the head is a thing I do to add wisdom/dignity to my characters but if it distracts maybe I should reconsider 

AztecLos -The designs are mostly faked from my head to capture the spirit more than the reality (except for the stone artifacts on page 5) so I can move quickly and keep it fun. It worried me a little and prompted this post to see if it bugged anyone. You truly made my day by catching it and encouraging me to spin it like Kirby on Thor (I do love those books) thank you, I can't wait to get some layout art up here.

[Kenney]

Very nice start! I married into a family with Aztec roots, so this really makes me smile.

Did you just come up with that Scooby Doo explanation on the spot? That was so cool. I've seen something similar, dealing with color theory, in regards to how well superhero color schemes work for interior design. I thought that was interesting then, and think this is interesting now.

[MickeyRossi]

Did you just come up with that Scooby Doo explanation on the spot?.

Yup. The Scooby Gang was the first team that popped into my head, but you can do that trick with almost any ensemble. Especially in animation and video games where things are in motion and need to be I.D.'d quickly.

[TimothyObriant]

Just finished up chapter 42 of Hellidays.  This webcomic will wrap up at chapter 50 so we're getting to the home stretch and I feel pretty comfortable with my art duties at this point.  So please hit me with the brutal honesty.  From layouts to lettering I do everything but write the script so feel free to comment on anything you see.  Thanks.

 

[Kyle Latino]

TimothyObriant, it's great that you've made it 42 pages!  Keep at it, you'll never wish you drew less in life.  You are a "doer", and that automaticly puts you in a class above most shmucks.  Nice going.  Keep going.

I've quickly redrawn the page to roughly illustrate changes I would consider for future pages.



Panel 1: I assume this isn't the first time we've seen this monster or the man on the ground, a wide shot is an awful choice.  It's a action panel and it should be a closer shot.  Bring that man on the ground further into foreground and black him out to frame the monster getting shot in the mid ground.  MAybe even split this into two panels, with the first one with the monster not getting shot, but keeping the words.

Panel 2:  Again, nothing is in the foreground.  Nothing is putting us in that action or telling us how close that guy is to the monsters.  Is he dropping? From where?  It need a background too.  Show us from where the character is moving, and pull the monster heads into the foreground, looking at him.

Panel 3:  This isn't Charlie Brown talking to Linus at brick walk, give us some depth and perspective.  Shoot into the axis of action: from the source to the target.  In this case, from the gun, to the neck.  Gun = foreground,  Neck = midground, Cave = background.  Also who else is talking from above.  Show him, have the character talk back to him, or leave him out entirely.  It's distracting and has nothing to do with the action on this page.  If something doesn't serve the page and doesn't drive the story, why put it in at all?  Also, something to be careful of, showing the action going left to right.  The bullets should be traveling that way, flip the panel.  Also, we are not close enough to the guy's face to see his acting.  Don't SAY "Yeeeehaw" if you can't DRAW "Yeeeeehaw".  His face should emote that so the word balloon doesn't have to carry that weight on it's own.

Panel 4:  Again, we are not close enough to the action.  Why are we always watching things from across the room?  Get up in that mess!  I want to see the life draining from the face of the monster!  I want to see a gob of spit dangling from the guys mouth as he puts all his strength into the strangle hold!  I want to see something that looks like a strangle hold in the first place.  Take a photo, do a google search, do some research.  Make me believe the action.

Panel 5:  It's your best panel.  Just bring the monster head and the standing guy closer into the foreground.

Does any of that make sense?  If you don't believe it's valid, don't bother saying anything and just stand by your choices.  But if I've made a point that you don't understand, please ask me what I mean.  I wanted to respect you and give you the brutal honesty you asked for.  Every problem you have can be fixed by draw less 2D looking pages.  Really look at your artistic heroes.  Discover why they make the choices they make and you will really have something.

[TimothyObriant]

Does any of that make sense?  If you don't believe it's valid, don't bother saying anything and just stand by your choices.  But if I've made a point that you don't understand, please ask me what I mean.  I wanted to respect you and give you the brutal honesty you asked for.  Every problem you have can be fixed by draw less 2D looking pages.  Really look at your artistic heroes.  Discover why they make the choices they make and you will really have something.

Makes perfect sense and I agree wholeheartedly.  I can't keep trying to fake perspective drawing and I need to tighten up my storytelling.  Thank you for you're lengthy response and honesty, it's exactly what I needed. 

[David]

What a wonderfully fantastic thread.

Love it.

[Bluenote77]

Tim,
I have agree with what Kyle is saying. I've noticed that in other parts of your strip. It seems like we are just observing something from the outside, a safe distance away from the actual story. Just simple steps like creating a fore, middle, and background would help the viewer get involved with the action. Simple perspective would help, it doesn't have to be complicated.

Congrats on making it to 42!

[doxinthebox]

i posted this up in the sketchbook thread and decided to bring it over here to be critiqued. this is the first time i've ever tried something sequential, so i would love some feedback on how to improve in the future. since it was played primarily for laughs and intended for the forum (not to mention, i'm a clutz with perspective), i didn't do much in the way of background detailing. apologies for the crummy camera work! have at it, and many thanks!

[Kyle Latino]

Doxinthebox, I've been thinking about what to say.  You basically took most of the criticism off the table by citing weakness in your perspective, background detailing, and camera work.  So there isn't much to discus after that.  Really, the rest is nit-picking over your rendering style and draftsmanship, which is mostly a matter of preference.

So, I guess, good job.  Especially for a first attempt at sequential, this is strong work.  Next time, don't undercut yourself and your work. Accept the shortcoming, but don't embrace them like that.  It seems to me that you've already put up a roadblock to any criticism by stating "it was played primarily for laughs and intended for the forum".

Oh, maybe try using Photoshop or the free GIMP to fix your levels.  Black blacks, an white whites go a long way to helping the final look.

[doxinthebox]

You basically took most of the criticism off the table by citing weakness in your perspective, background detailing, and camera work.  So there isn't much to discus after that. 

i meant the crummy digital photos, sorry...still scanner-less. i would love any suggestions on camera work as it pertains to the storytelling. i didn't intend to put up any roadblocks (but i get what you're saying) and i appreciate you responding, kyle! i have been following your responses to others in this thread and have found the information and suggestions contained therein to be helpful to say the least! 

i don't currently have photoshop ($$) and my computer is a mac...any good freeware that you know of?

thanks again!

[Kyle Latino]

@doxinthebox, Oh, well in that case...

Like I said before, good job. I got the joke, and the stage was set pretty well, sans sparse background.  Also, I'll just comment on the storytelling. Into the critique:

In general, the missing ingredient to these panels is just this one thing: Three Quarter View. Almost all of your shots are straight on, or profile.  In my opinion, save the profile view for when you CANNOT do it any other way.  And straight on shots are for when you need to shock or reader into paying attention.  Anything else should be Three Quarter. Most panels in most comics, most shots in most movies, are three quarter.  The characters are interacting or looking in a diagonal into or away from the picture plane.

Panel 1: Good, it tells us where we are going.  I would have had the sign in the foreground, and Vader in the midground.  Shoot it against the wall, with the sign over the door, instead of straight down the hall.  But your panel does tell the story, I would just show more.

Panel 2: Great.  bring the vending machine to bare more with some depth away from the wall, and bringing it away from the panel border.  You have to be careful  about putting important things against the border like that.  It's often, if not always,  an awful idea.

Panel 3: Three Quarter angle on this shot would be better.  I didn't know what was happening the first time I saw this.  If you had color, you could do something graphic like this, but it doesn't work as is.

Panels 4-6: Three Quarter shot.  Also, the bill could look more like money with some numbers or something.  But, it's a funny joke, and the panels do work the way they are.

Panel 7: Best panel on the page.

Panes 8-9: These panels are superfluous and poorly composed with the profile view.  In any case, they should be on over the shoulder Three Quarter shot with Vader in the foreground.  But it's just the same joke, and it doesn't move the story forward.  Something different should happen, like the bill comes out crumpled as an extra insult.  Or  you could just move on or figure out another joke.  As is, it's just wanking off on something we've already seen in the panels above.

Panel 10: Best panel of the page.  The Storm Trooper taking video is hilarious!  But, the panel should be larger, and we need to see more of Vader.  Vader should be seen from the bust up with his hand in the air to give the reader more non-verbals.  And we just need to see the guys in the background from just below the table, we don't need full bodies for them.  It will make the panel less crowded, and balance the composition better.

Panel 11: Nice panel, just needs to be smaller.

Panel 12: Good.  This is a great use of the front on shot.  But I would tilt the can diagonally just a bit to make it look like it's still falling, instead of just laying there.

Panel 13:  Why is this a close up?  If it's for the straw joke, the straw should not go off panel.  If it's to show us that he picked it up, a three quarter shot of him reaching for it would be better, showing the straw in his other hand.

Panel 14: *rim-shot* good joke, told pretty well.  Again, this is a good use of a straight on shot.  The perspective is wonky, but you know that.  Some more depth to the vending machine by showing all three sides would be better.  You should have completed the joke and the composition with the guys at the table in the background reacting.  Also, the "slurp" is giant, and not that great.  It should be much smaller.  The size of all the sfx is relational to volume.  You turned that "slurp" up to "11".  Calm it down.  Also, the "Slam" is in the least important place on the page, compositionally speaking.  We read right to left, up to down.  The bottom right hand corner is a big no-no for composition.  Put the guys at the table up in the top left of the panel, the Slam right over Vader's other shoulder, the slurp under that, and you have a really nice finale.

[doxinthebox]

thank you for this, kyle! your comments will definitely help me improve future composition and storytelling! karma!

[Jon O]

It's hard to critique anything and phrase it more succinctly than Kyle.  It's like he's been training his whole life to be an editor   And I mean that as a good thing.

I agree with varying the angles more.  It's a problem with my work too.  A good rule of thumb when moving the 'camera' around in a shot is that you can go anywhere you want as long as you don't cross over an imaginary line drawn between two characters.  This would flip all the characters positions in relation to each other and it gets more confusing for the reader.  



A lot of ideas from photography and cinematography work in comic panels as well.  Shooting up at a character from really low makes them look more powerful and imposing.  Aiming down at a character would make them look more timid or weaker.  Take cues for framing your shots from all mediums.  I study a lot of comic artists of course.  Good directors do a great job with picking how much to show in frame when they're making a movie, just forcing yourself to be aware of a director choosing those shots will force you to grow more critical as you watch the movie (although sometimes I totally lose the plot of a story  ).  My personal favorite source of inspiration is old cartoons.  Looney Tunes, Pink Panther, Felix the Cat (60's era), Voltron...In my ideal world there would be cartoons playing every time I sit down to work on comics.

[doxinthebox]

thanks jon! i have recently begun to take a hard look at my favorite artists/directors and their choices of cinematography. now i just need to start incorporating those lessons into my work, which is the hard (and fun) part!

[Jon O]

It took me a few minutes to illustrate the point.  Hope it helps 

[MickeyRossi]

If you want a crash course in cinematography, I highly recommend The 5 C's of Cinematography (camera angles, continuity, cutting, close-ups, and composition). Even though its focused on film making, there's a lot of generalist knowledge that's really valuable from a storytelling perspective. My dayjob is in the software entertainment/3D zone, and it's a great reference for lighting and camera setups, too. Just an all around great book.

http://www.amazon.com/Five-Cs-Cinematography-Picture-Techniques/dp/187950541X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305241367&sr=8-1