11 O'Clock Comics Episode 161

[Adam O. Pruett]

Whether or not it was supposed to be a "dream tale," Elektra Lives Again is in continuity. For me. My requirement for what I tend to take on board as canon is "is it good?"

Give me excellent comics with disjointed continuity over mediocre comics that happen to be continuity-friendly any day of the week. I mean, if there's some kind of continuity problem, can't we just imagine that there's some phantom back issue that connects the dots which we just haven't read?

[David]

...can't we just imagine that there's some phantom back issue that connects the dots which we just haven't read?

I can't.  I'm not saying I'll read every Daredevil, Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, or Hulk story in my lifetime, but if it wasn't on the comic book page, it didn't happen.

But everyone's different.  I haven't read "Sins Past" or whatever the name of the story JMS wrote about Gwen and Norman is, and therefore, in my mind, it never happened.

[Adam O. Pruett]

I can't.  I'm not saying I'll read every Daredevil, Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, or Hulk story in my lifetime, but if it wasn't on the comic book page, it didn't happen.

Huh. I can partially relate to this, but not entirely. Especially since comics are a world of make-believe where anything can happen and explanations for the unexplained can always, always, always be retconned in (and often are, for better or for worse).

Don't get me wrong; a story still has to make sense and stand on its own feet, but I'm talking about differences that are separated by vast gaps of time or changes in creative teams or other such "break points." I mean -- Batman DID kill a bunch of people in the old days (machine-gunned them down from his Batplane, even!), and if we can sweep that under the rug, can't we sweep some of the unanswered questions of continuity under there, as well?

As you said, we're all different. Care to elaborate on your position? I'm curious.

[scoundrel3000]

Good job keeping Vince spoiler free this week guys! 

[David]

Don't get me wrong; a story still has to make sense and stand on its own feet, but I'm talking about differences that are separated by vast gaps of time or changes in creative teams or other such "break points." I mean -- Batman DID kill a bunch of people in the old days (machine-gunned them down from his Batplane, even!), and if we can sweep that under the rug, can't we sweep some of the unanswered questions of continuity under there, as well?

I can sweep that under the rug because that Batman is different than the Denny/Neal Batman which is different than the Year One era Batman which is different than the post-Hush Batman.  Same thing with the Golden Age and sweater-wearing Superman, the Silver Age and silly stories Superman, and the Byrne reboot Superman.

They look different, the stories are told differently, and their tones are different.

But those stories still happened.  They exist.  They are out there to be read.  They are proof.

I'm not big on deus ex machina.  Not when it comes to superheroes.  They already have me 'believing' a spider can grant super strength and improved vision.  That a gamma bomb explosion won't kill a man, just make his anger more obvious.  That being struck with a radioactive isotope while losing your vision will enhance your other senses.  I'm hooked.  I'm along for the ride.  I trust them.  I'm supposed to believe in the science they've created.  And those that came after them, they've used it to their advantage.  Built on the science and the stories that came before.

Grant Morrison did it with Batman.  Peter David did it with the Incredible Hulk.  Joss Whedon did it with the X-Men.  Geoff Johns did it with Hal Jordan.

As funny as it sounds from someone that's a fan of the medium, don't insult my intelligence.  Don't take the cheap and uncreative way out and tell me it happened between issues.

Stories are retconned.  Retcons I can live with, even when they are asinine.  Retcons are tweaking stories that were told.  Retcons are not tweaking stories that didn't happen.

[monsta]

Getting to the show a little late this week, but I'm doing it right! My favorite beer, favorite hard liquor Sidecar, and cigar. Well done gentlemen!! I live this friggin' show. Well done gentlemen!!

[Adam O. Pruett]

Stories are retconned.  Retcons I can live with, even when they are asinine.  Retcons are tweaking stories that were told.  Retcons are not tweaking stories that didn't happen.

I guess seeing as how stories that didn't originally "happen" are often inserted into the past, I just don't think it's that big a leap. Bridging stories that already exist isn't the same thing as creating a new, fan-fiction-level story from whole cloth.

As funny as it sounds from someone that's a fan of the medium, don't insult my intelligence.  Don't take the cheap and uncreative way out and tell me it happened between issues.

I agree -- and I'll admit I haven't been especially articulate -- but I'm talking more about the importance readers place on continuity than I am creators' handling (or mishandling) of that continuity. Perhaps bringing up retcons was a mistake -- but the point was that if we're willing to take on board "Explanation X" to explain some major change -- especially when that explanation is very poor -- then why can't a book as good as Elektra Lives Again be a part of continuity?

Your mileage may vary, but I don't feel like I need to wait for a mainstream book to validate the events of Elektra Lives Again for me to place more importance on it than, say, that Elektra series by Mike Deodato.

Anyway -- thanks for explaining your point of view further.  

[David]

-- but the point was that if we're willing to take on board "Explanation X" to explain some major change -- especially when that explanation is very poor -- then why can't a book as good as Elektra Lives Again be a part of continuity?

I wasn't arguing about whether it's continuity to you.  It's just that I can't pretend the stories were connected in an issue that was never produced.

[Adam O. Pruett]

I wasn't arguing about whether it's continuity to you.  It's just that I can't pretend the stories were connected in an issue that was never produced.

Whoops! That's fine, I can get that -- that's much simpler. Disregard my posts, then -- I was pretty much arguing against a position you don't actually hold.



So, uh, how 'bout that end of the world tomorrow? Anyone going to go see it?

[David]

So, uh, how 'bout that end of the world tomorrow? Anyone going to go see it?

 

[aSh]

I believe that since the concept of Continuity in comics came from fans, it is the fans job to make stories fit when they don't. It is one of the magics and responsibilities of being invested into a larger Universe of fiction. I like to think about how I think the Marvel or the DC universe is put together in the larger scheme of time lines. It is one of the reasons I thinks that date stores to certain time periods. I really liked Mark Waid's Captain America Man out of Time story, but I hate the Idea that Cap wasn't here to see the Berlin Wall Fall down (or the Cold war in general). That story's point was not tell us that Cap showed up in the year 2000, it was to show us just how 'Out of Time' Cap really was when he came out of the ice. Waid always seems to try to impose his views of time lines and hyper time into his stories that make thinks feel correct for him. (ie his whole "Hyper Time" Concept, or his Modern Flash of Two Worlds ret con that Keystone City was 'lost' and found by Barry, or his Superman Birthright story). And don't get me wrong. Waid is in my top 5 writers of all time list. I know my own personal Idea of the DC, and Marvel timelines and I don't need them defined to me. I also like not having any thing spoon feed to me. Recently the Calculator has show up in Batgirl, Birds of Prey, Red Robin and Teen Titans. Now I read all of these stories  and I can understand how they all fit together in each story while each standing on their own with out having to read any of the other stories. During the first issues of each of the stories I had internal questions about why Calculator is doing what he is doing when he was just some else in a past story I just read. By the end of each story, they all made sense in the larger concept of the villain.  It was up to me the reader to make sense of the timelines, and that was the fun of reading all those issues.

I love thinking about the unseen adventures of Doctor Who. The Time War, the Untold stories between the 8Th and 9Th Doctors. The things that lead the return of Rassilon. The crazy timeline of the Daleks. The untold past relationship between the Doctor and Master. It is what makes the show fascinating to me on to a more intellectual level once I am done watching a psychical story.

I love making the the pre-crisis history of the DCU fit together with the Post-Crisis DCU in my mind. It doesn't need to be done for me and I don't need Superboy Prime to the punch the Walls of Reality in order to correct the oddities of Hawkman or Wonder Woman. I can make that work on my own ask long as the stories are Consistant. And I will throw things out that just make things not work for me. In my World HawkGod didn't happen. In my world I can make all the Legions fit as Parallel World Legions (which was obvious to me before Legion of 3 Worlds) and I can remember Colin Bakers Doctor never wearing a Clown suit, And Wolverine never had stupid Bone Claws.

I believe in the Power of Personal Continuity Construction. I just requires intrest and consistant stories.

[leafinsectman (Dan)]

So, uh, how 'bout that end of the world tomorrow? Anyone going to go see it?

Its already Saturday here in Sydney. If the world starts to crumble/explode/etc. I'll give you guys a heads up.

[Bluenote77]

I finally read Flashpoint and understand most of points made by the confusion of characters, but I tried rolled with it.

At the end though...not sure if it has been spoiled or not...

When Barry exclaimed "You're Thomas Wayne" Would it help the situation of not knowing who Thomas Wayne is if he simply stated "You're Bruce's father, Thomas Wayne!"

...or would that just make it sound hacky?

[Farrell]

So, uh, how 'bout that end of the world tomorrow? Anyone going to go see it?

 

Its already Saturday here in Sydney. If the world starts to crumble/explode/etc. I'll give you guys a heads up.

 

I've heard that some people have left piles of clothes on the sidewalk as if true believers have been lifted right out of them. 

[Night (Travis) Nurse]

 

I've heard that some people have left piles of clothes on the sidewalk as if true believers have been lifted right out of them.  

Thats just awesome!!

I only know one person, who if there was a rapture has a %100 chance of being saved. If they drop dead tomorrow I may stool in my pants for a moment.  

My wife just got back form a disaster preparedness seminar and I asked her if they addressed the rapture. Sadly like Zombies, FEMA is under prepared for such events.

The worst part is that since there's 5 months between the judgement day and the end of the world, when the rest of us know that Jesus is present but are forsaken. I still wont be able to make it through the regina pile.

Travis

[leafinsectman (Dan)]

I still wont be able to make it through the regina pile.

No kidding, this is my biggest concern when it comes to any end of the world type scenarios.

[Julian Lytle]

WOOOD!! You deserve some serious dap for repping my man
ROCK MAN!



also I think Thomas Wayne is really THE only character that a "new" reader would know at all. If this "new" reader who never has read a superhero comic and hasn't seen any Batman media ever was reading this book I think it might be confusing. But I really doubt that any person reading this never saw anything with Batman. That is what they focus on that family picture-we know that the two males in the picture the child is bruce. Now I do think that Thomas should've been drawn older and maybe bigger like DKR Batman.

[Purdie]

Good job keeping Vince spoiler free this week guys! 

Not so much for the ending of Flashpoint #1 spoiler though.   

[Hassan T]

WOOOD!! You deserve some serious dap for repping my man
ROCK MAN!



also I think Thomas Wayne is really THE only character that a "new" reader would know at all. If this "new" reader who never has read a superhero comic and hasn't seen any Batman media ever was reading this book I think it might be confusing. But I really doubt that any person reading this never saw anything with Batman. That is what they focus on that family picture-we know that the two males in the picture the child is bruce. Now I do think that Thomas should've been drawn older and maybe bigger like DKR Batman.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't agree that this comic was as inaccessible as others think. Everything you need to know is on the page. And who doesn't know the origin of Batman with all the movies and animation out there. When we talk about new readers, we probably should limit it to people who like to watch super-hero movies, but haven't never read a comic or haven't in a long time. If someone doesn't like to watch super-hero movies, they are never going to pick up a comic.

Thinking about inaccessiblilty, Warner Bros just release an image of Bane that everyone is talking about. If DC comics did the same thing, people would say they are targeting existing readers only because who would know Bane outside the comics. I think as readers, we sometimes over think what is accessible and what is not.

Btw, loved the episode. This is one of my favorite podcasts

[Radioactive Man]

Really enjoy the podcast but lately your negativity is bringing me down.