Steve Rude Can't Get A Job?

[steve bryant]

Redacted joke about a socially-challenged person of prominence in the comics industry.

(Being careful of what I put out there!   )

[Doug!]

Redacted joke about a socially-challenged person of prominence in the comics industry.

(Being careful of what I put out there!   )

Don't you dare tempt me!

[bean6344]

I don't know, guys. Most of what I've read in this thread falls under the category of "Yeah, he's talented but if I were an employer and he was blogging and tweeting that way about me, I'd think twice about hiring him."

Dave,
What is the questionable content in the Facebook post?  I'm not trying to be faux coy.  I just don't see it.  I really don't see any inappropriate statements.  He did not call out anyone by name nor did he make any negative comments.  I read no snark. 
Bean

[JimN]

Dave,
What is the questionable content in the Facebook post?  I'm not trying to be faux coy.  I just don't see it.  I really don't see any inappropriate statements.  He did not call out anyone by name nor did he make any negative comments.  I read no snark.

It's this line:

In the time that I've been gone, comics seem to have only gotten worse in terms of art and story, which is what made me back off in the first place. I feel that any direct contributions I could make by re-entering the field might have a positive effect.

It's hardly the worst comment in the world but as I said earlier in the thread, nobody who's working hard for one of these comics companies wants to hear someone (even an accomplished artist like Steve Rude) say" What you're doing is weak. Let ME show you how it's done". Right or wrong, even if viewed as constructive criticism, that's not a great way to get hired. It immediately raises red flags about  someone's attitude and makes them seem like they could potentially prove difficult in a working relationship.

Jim

[Wood]

Dave,
What is the questionable content in the Facebook post?  I'm not trying to be faux coy.  I just don't see it.  I really don't see any inappropriate statements.  He did not call out anyone by name nor did he make any negative comments.  I read no snark. 
Bean

He said comics seem to have gotten worse in his absence, and he gave DC -- the company he wants to give him work -- a list of titles he wants to work on. Neither of those things would make me eager to hire him if I were a DC editor.

[Julian Lytle]

He said comics seem to have gotten worse in his absence, and he gave DC -- the company he wants to give him work -- a list of titles he wants to work on. Neither of those things would make me eager to hire him if I were a DC editor.

I guess I can see that but on the outside looking in I don't think I trust those editors with having good ideas with direction of  comics. I don't think they really know what to do anymore.

[evaD]

Dave,
What is the questionable content in the Facebook post?  I'm not trying to be faux coy.  I just don't see it.  I really don't see any inappropriate statements.  He did not call out anyone by name nor did he make any negative comments.  I read no snark. 
Bean

I think what Jim wrote is good, but there are a few other things. Before I go down my list I want to make it clear I don't know Rude and have nothing but admiration for the guy's work. That said here's where I think he should have given more thought before posting:
1. The thing about comics having gotten worse.
2. Saying he's coming back only because he needs the money and any contribution he makes can only improve the state of comics.
3. His statement about the books he wants to work implies that he may not know what DC is currently publishing.
4. Refers to people he's in contact with as "exec" types.
5. Says "two others I never heard back from. Interesting world, isn't it?
Now, imagine saying those things out loud to someone interviewing you for a job. That's not exactly what he did, but it kinda is. Do they make him a horrible human being? No. But if I were the guy he was asking for a job, I might be a little miffed about being referred to as an "exec" type - I doubt it's considered an endearing term, particularly in that context. Here's how I translate all the things he said from above:
"I've been thinking about coming back to comics and have noticed how bad the story telling and art have gotten, no matter what, my return could only improve things. I'd like to work for DC, especially on the books Superman, Supergirl, OMAC, (I don't recall the fourth title). I'm in contact with people who think they're better than me but don't have the common courtesy to get back to me in a timely fashion."

Now, I'm not saying this is what he meant or how the people in question might have interpreted it. I'm saying it is text and this is one possible easily arrived at interpretation. Words are open to interpretation and the words he selected could very easily be interpreted in a negative light. You don't see it and maybe the people he's seeking work from won't see it, but by writing what he did in the way he did sure isn't going to make it more likely that he will get a job. What he wrote could, at best, gain him nothing and at worst cost him a job.

[bean6344]

Its funny but it seems like Steve is really channeling Alex Toth with those statements on art and storytelling.

Here is one account of the infamous critique that Steve received after faxing Toth pages from the 80s Johny Quest story he did for Comico.

http://www.illdave.com/comicbooks/history/toth-critiques-rude.htm

Bean

[steve bryant]

I think what Jim wrote is good, but there are a few other things. Before I go down my list I want to make it clear I don't know Rude and have nothing but admiration for the guy's work. That said here's where I think he should have given more thought before posting:
1. The thing about comics having gotten worse.
2. Saying he's coming back only because he needs the money and any contribution he makes can only improve the state of comics.
3. His statement about the books he wants to work implies that he may not know what DC is currently publishing.
4. Refers to people he's in contact with as "exec" types.
5. Says "two others I never heard back from. Interesting world, isn't it?
Now, imagine saying those things out loud to someone interviewing you for a job. That's not exactly what he did, but it kinda is. Do they make him a horrible human being? No. But if I were the guy he was asking for a job, I might be a little miffed about being referred to as an "exec" type - I doubt it's considered an endearing term, particularly in that context. Here's how I translate all the things he said from above:
"I've been thinking about coming back to comics and have noticed how bad the story telling and art have gotten, no matter what, my return could only improve things. I'd like to work for DC, especially on the books Superman, Supergirl, OMAC, (I don't recall the fourth title). I'm in contact with people who think they're better than me but don't have the common courtesy to get back to me in a timely fashion."

Now, I'm not saying this is what he meant or how the people in question might have interpreted it. I'm saying it is text and this is one possible easily arrived at interpretation. Words are open to interpretation and the words he selected could very easily be interpreted in a negative light. You don't see it and maybe the people he's seeking work from won't see it, but by writing what he did in the way he did sure isn't going to make it more likely that he will get a job. What he wrote could, at best, gain him nothing and at worst cost him a job.

Great points. But, as Wood said, we're not privy to the discussion. Your interpretation isn't based on what Steve said in his emails/phone calls, but on a Facebook account of what happened.

Bear in mind, however, the account on his Facebook page probably includes things not included in his emails. He may have included "In the time that I've been gone, comics seem to have only gotten worse in terms of art and story," and "I needed the bread," but I doubt it.

Additionally, he doesn't ask for any books, but says "The books I would most like to contribute to?  Here they are in order of preference."

For all we know, he may have said something like this:

If you're familiar with my work, you'll know that I try and achieve a particular heroic ideal. Both in terms of appearance and content, Superman is most in line with my aesthetics. I've handled the character before, in the 1991 World's Finest mini-series, for which I won an Eisner Award. Another character in that family of books, Supergirl, fits is in keeping with my strengths. And, as you may know, I have a particular affinity for the works of Jack Kirby. If you have plans for Big Barda and her Female Furies or OMAC, I would love to be involved in the project.

Additionally, I would be glad to pitch a project for any of these properties with a writer of your choosing.

Of course, those are just my preferences. If there are other projects to which you think I'm suited, I'm eager to continue the conversation.

Back in 1990 I wrote Steve a fan letter (non-email). He responded with a wonderful letter (again, non-email) that was very professional. I reviewed that letter before constructing my mock letter I posted above. He can write a very professional letter, so it wouldn't surprise me if he inquired in the manner that I described and "vented" on his Facebook page after not hearing much.

Financial frustration leads many of us to say/post things that reflect our mental state, sometimes not in the most prudent forum. Lord knows I've done it.

My bottom line is don't assume that what he posted on Facebook is the way that his correspondence with DC went.

[Dean S.]

I think the way I'd sum it up is that what he said on Facebook really isn't the worst thing ever.  Maybe its a touch provocative and it seems like he's frustrated, but we/I don't really know.

The point I'd make is that it certainly isn't helpful if he wants a job in corporate comics the same way it wouldn't be helpful if any of us went on a job interview and posted on facebook that we hadn't heard back from the company yet and how surprising that is because we know that we'd be helpful.

The thing I'd say about Rude is that at least he is doing something about it.  The man turned my commission around pretty darn fast and it seems like others are having similar experiences.  He isn't crying in his beer.  He's using the talents he has to do at least something productive and even if it isn't a monthly gig like he'd like, at least he's being proactive about things.  Generally speaking talent and a willingness to work hard will triumph in the end.

[evaD]

Steve,
I was responding to what was in the original post and if you read everything in my last post you will see that I said it was one possible interpretation of what was posted on his FaceBook page, in tweets and on a blog (according to the first post in this thread), which a potential employer would have access to. I was not referring to any private email that we aren't privy to, commenting on things that Rude has made public. It is there that I think he is committing an error.
Your comments are very valid, but don't really relate to what I was addressing. I've also said in several posts that I'm a fan of the guy, that I hope he finds work, would love to see him at DC, and that I'm not passing judgement on him as a human being since I don't know him. All I'm saying is that if what was in the original post is what he is posting online he should be more careful because it is probably doing more harm than good for his cause. Further, I believe that's what many people are saying and I'm having a hard time understanding why that's creating such a controversy. I fail to see what Rude is like in person or how well he crafts a letter has to do with what was supposedly posted in his blog, tweets, FaceBook, etc. People have lost jobs or been barred from whole fields of employment for online behavior that was less directed at the employer.

[bean6344]

Dean,
Posts like this are why I LOVE this forum.  Karma!  You guys are the best!


 

Bean

[JimN]

He said comics seem to have gotten worse in his absence, and he gave DC -- the company he wants to give him work -- a list of titles he wants to work on.

Again, we don't know if he did that or not. He posted that list on Facebook but we have no idea if he gave it to DC or, if he did, how he presented it.  The latter would make a big difference in how it was received.

My bottom line is don't assume that what he posted on Facebook is the way that his correspondence with DC went.

Very well said. I didn't quote the whole post but it was excellent, Steve.

Jim

[Lucien21]

People have lost jobs or been barred from whole fields of employment for online behavior that was less directed at the employer.

I know at my work they recently published a new social media policy with rules about what we can post online to connect us with our place of work.

My guess is that this is pretty standard these days or will be very quickly.

[evaD]

Dean,
Posts like this are why I LOVE this forum.  Karma!  You guys are the best!
 
Bean

I think that's almost the same thing I've been saying...

Again, we don't know if he did that or not. He posted that list on Facebook but we have no idea if he gave it to DC or, if he did, how he presented it.  The latter would make a big difference in how it was
Jim

Jim, I think you're missing the point. What everyone here is saying is that by posting it on FaceBook and twitter and anywhere else on the Internet, he has, in fact, told DC. They have access to the Internet and it is pretty common for employers to check that kind of stuff before hiring someone. FaceBook archives everything ever posted on their site and for a price employers can search those archives, whether your stuff is "public" or "private". Legally it is all public. To try to split hairs as to whether or not he put it in an email is immaterial. He posted it on the Internet. He may as well have paid for billboard space across the street from DC headquarters and written it there. Actually, that probably would have been better. If we were talking about someone else posting something they claimed to have heard- no big deal. He posted it with his name attached. If someone from DC sees it, it might as well have been in any direct communication.

I'm guessing based on your reaction that none of that occurred to Rude either and what I've been saying is someone needs to tell him that kind of stuff gets noticed and can cost you a job.

[BurlIves]

No doubt.  I know people who have been fired for things they have posted on Facebook thinking no-one from the company would see it.  You'd better believe that stuff will bite you in the ass. 

[Steve Raker]

People have lost jobs or been barred from whole fields of employment for online behavior that was less directed at the employer.

I frequently hear about cases like this regarding people in your field of teaching, evaD, so I'm sure you feel and have to consider/act on some related restrictions/limitations.

I pretty much get and pretty much agree with just about everything everyone is saying, so I'm not sure if you guys are disagreeing as much as pointing out different aspects of the dynamics/variables at play.

...either way: 

[JimN]

I think that's almost the same thing I've been saying...Jim, I think you're missing the point. What everyone here is saying is that by posting it on FaceBook and twitter and anywhere else on the Internet, he has, in fact, told DC.

I'm not missing the point. In fact, quite the opposite, I think the point Steve and I are making is being overlooked or misunderstood. Steve Rude approached DC a month before he posted the comments we've been discussing on Facebook. If he expressed a preference regarding what he'd like to draw or suggested some titles that he felt appealed to his strengths, there's absolutely no harm in that if he approached it the right way. Consequently, there would be no harm in expressing those same preferences online.

To try to split hairs as to whether or not he put it in an email is immaterial.

It's not immaterial because the timeline makes a difference and there's nothing in the way he expressed his preference for particular characters/books that should trouble anyone at DC or elsewhere. We agree that some of his other comments might arouse the ire of a publisher but IF he mentioned those 4 character preferences to DC and IF he did so appropriately, mentioning them again on Facebook should make no difference at all. Professional comic artists and writers talk about characters they'd love to work on all the time. It's harmless, common behavior.

I'm guessing based on your reaction that none of that occurred to Rude either and what I've been saying is someone needs to tell him that kind of stuff gets noticed and can cost you a job.

You may want too go back to the first page of the thread and look at my reaction again. I absolutely realize that by posting his comments publicly he may have hurt his chances at a gig. It was the first thing that occurred to me.

Look, I'm just trying to provide the perspective in this thread of a professional freelance artist and former art director. I've spent decades on both sides of this equation, approaching clients as an artist and being approached by artists as an art director. This is something I understand very well.

Jim

[Wood]

As Backwards Dave said, this notion that "he didn't tell DC" simply ignores the reality of today's human resource management. If you post something on your Facebook, or Tweet it, or on a message board, you are saying it to EVERYONE, particularly those your comments are specifically about. So while I stick by my (we don't really know the full story) view, I also think it's unreasonable to suggest that what was said on Facebook somehow is different than what the DC editors heard. I guarantee it got back to them. We're talking about it, I guarantee they know of it.

[steve bryant]

Dave, I got what you were saying. I was mostly pointing out my incredulity at DC not getting back to a guy who won an Eisner for his Superman, as well as being the only comic artist in the world to win an Eisner Award (multiple ones), a Kirby Award, a Harvey Award, and the Russ Manning Most Promising Newcomer Award. The guy has been producing critically acclaimed comics for longer than some of the current editors have been alive , with no drop off in quality.

And I did agree that he may have jumped the gun on his Facebook post. Like Jim, I've been on both sides of the table, and understand it all too well.

Additionally, I know I've posted plenty of Tweets, etc that I've later deleted (and know plenty of you who have done so, as well). I guess I have sympathy for the Dude, even if it seems (to quote a redacted tweet of a dear friend) "Bush league."