11 O'Clock Comics Episode 174

[MatthewA]

I'm sad that it sobered Wooooode up and he got all knightly to give his feedback (because all the way up to this you wuz actin' a FOO', Brah!! I wuz LOVIN' it!!), but I'm also happy that it mattered enough.  I guess what I liked the most was the respect given to the topic at hand.

This brings up an interesting point...

Let me preface this by saying that after listening to the podcast over the last few months I know what the 4 guys are about and never in a million/billion years would I ever consider any of them to be even the slightest bit racist. It's not even a question.

However, a few weeks back my wife, who is black, came into the room while I was listening to an older episode and Wood was getting excited about a comic or some nonsense and he shouted "Aaaah, YEAH! Hook a brotha up!" Till that point I never though much about how often, as New Mutant put it, the guys start "actin' a FOO!" on the show, but with my wife sitting there I cringed a little. I asked what she thought when she heard white guys talking like that and she responded that she's used to it. I mentioned that Jason is big on hip-hop and blaxploitation so it wasn't meant to be derisive or mean-spirited; he just talks that way when he's excited, and her reply was "It's like Paul Mooney says: white folks can't let the black community have anything. You see us having fun and you gotta come in and take it." 

Please keep in mind that this woman has referred to me as a "cracker ass cracker" and will often state that all white people look the same to her, so she truly isn't angry at Wood or anybody else, but I just thought it was interesting to hear her take on it. Food for thought, I guess.

[New Mutant]

This brings up an interesting point...

Let me preface this by saying that after listening to the podcast over the last few months I know what the 4 guys are about and never in a million/billion years would I ever consider any of them to be even the slightest bit racist. It's not even a question.

However, a few weeks back my wife, who is black, came into the room while I was listening to an older episode and Wood was getting excited about a comic or some nonsense and he shouted "Aaaah, YEAH! Hook a brotha up!" Till that point I never though much about how often, as New Mutant put it, the guys start "actin' a FOO!" on the show, but with my wife sitting there I cringed a little. I asked what she thought when she heard white guys talking like that and she responded that she's used to it. I mentioned that Jason is big on hip-hop and blaxploitation so it wasn't meant to be derisive or mean-spirited; he just talks that way when he's excited, and her reply was "It's like Paul Mooney says: white folks can't let the black community have anything. You see us having fun and you gotta come in and take it." 

Please keep in mind that this woman has referred to me as a "cracker ass cracker" and will often state that all white people look the same to her, so she truly isn't angry at Wood or anybody else, but I just thought it was interesting to hear her take on it. Food for thought, I guess.

I personally love it when a white man marries a black woman. (Yet ANOTHER dimension to my devotion to His DAPness.) Because to me, the White Male is on top of the food chain. It's not something I like to accept, and I would take it into my bare hands to tear that shitty status quo apart because I'm talking about EQUALITY bitches, and FUCK YOU IN A NOT-NICE WAY if you can't handle that concept.

So when a white guy takes his actual LIFE and shows that it's not about just words, but ACTION, ie not just staying safe, accepting white privilege, tolerating or ignoring (or God forbid LAUGHING WITH) the racists in the family woodpile, but demonstrably loving and COMMITTING YOUR LIFE to a black person; trusting that person with YOUR own life, taking their dreams and hopes into your own, pledging yourself to their happiness, defending them with your life, unashamed to be called their family, unashamed to call them YOURS, and then, if biology allows, making children who not only WILL BE, but will be SEEN as a black person who is also your Son and your Daughter. 

You do that, white man, and I will know that you love me.

[MatthewA]

Not for nothing, but I was on the phone with a client one time and for some reason he asked me if I was a brother. I told him I wasn't but that my wife was black and he said "Ah, you are a brother then."  

Just to offer some clarification to my previous post - I'm admittedly overly sensitive to language when it comes to race. I have a neighbor, white guy, who is fond of saying "What up, my brotha?" and giving fist bumps. No big deal. One night though, after too many beers, he offers his fist to me and says "What up, my ni**a?"

I was mortified.

My initial reaction was to tell him never to say that again and he apologized and seemed somewhat ashamed. When I told my wife about it later she said that had she been there he'd have gotten an earful and that she was really disappointed to know that happened.

About a year later she and I are out to dinner with another friend of mine, also white, also fond of using phrases such as "Take that, bitches" and "Help a brotha out." We're having a conversation and he throws out "Ni**a, please."

Again, mortified.

My wife very calmly tells him to never use that word in her presence again and he offers multiple apologies.

All this to say that I bristle now when I hear white people say stuff like "Hook a brotha up." because I am, rightfully or not, afraid that the N-word may pop out next. Never heard Wood or anyone else on the show say it, but again, with my wife sitting there my mind flashed to the events I just mentioned.

How I see all of this fitting into the conversation brought up on the show about racist characters and use of the N-word is that you just never know how someone will react, especially if it's taken out of context. I was watching a Louis C.K. stand-up special a few weeks back and my wife walked in right as he used the N-word. Later she told me she was bothered to hear him say that and I had to explain that it was tied into a bit he had done earlier in the act. Regardless, from her vantage point she just sees a pasty white guy on TV saying "Ni**er". I'll never know the true sting of that word or how it feels to be imitated or mocked or hated or whatever (the closest I'll ever get is being bashed as an atheist or being made fun of 'cuz I'm bald. Boo-hoo.)

Another quick story - One time my wife and father-in-law go jogging. They walk into the street as a car is coming and the guy slams on his brakes, so my wife's dad waves an apology. As the dude drives off he rolls down the window and yells "Stupid fucking ni**er!" Needless to say my wife was shocked and saddened by this, and when I heard about it I was livid. I was ready to hunt that fucker down and remove his teeth with a hammer. Later I bring up the incident to my father-in-law and he laughs it off, saying, "That's not the first time I've heard that." Three different reactions to the same word. It's all relative to your personal connection to the word and your life experience. This is where education comes into play. When we read Huckleberry Finn in school our teacher introduced it by talking about the language. A bunch of suburban white kids need to know the hows and whys of our country's past and it does no good to sweeten it up or ignore it, but there needs to be context and an understanding of why certain language has a different impact and meaning for different people.

[S. Earl]

BTW

anyone of you guys planning to go see CONAN this weekend?

It will be hard to come within a country mile of the quality of the original movie. Arnold's non acting be damned, Conan the Barbarian is a straight up classic. From the booming score (BASIL POLEDOURIS FTW), to the awesome landscapes and hand built sets, and the excellent battles, it's hard to top. It felt like a Howard story come to life. From what I've seen of this new one, it just looks like another generic CGI fest with a lame pseudo metal lite soundtrack (that music would fit right at home in the new DC advertisement...) Anyways, I'll wait in the wings till you guys report back. I will be glad to see Drogo wreck shop in Cimmeria if it ends up being worth decent.

In regards to the Image, Marvel, DC, hat trick. Didn't Nick Spencer just have 3 books come out all on the same day? Morning Glories, Thunder Agents, and... Iron Man 2.0 or Cloak and Dagger?

[New Mutant]

Not for nothing, but I was on the phone with a client one time and for some reason he asked me if I was a brother. I told him I wasn't but that my wife was black and he said "Ah, you are a brother then."  

Just to offer some clarification to my previous post - I'm admittedly overly sensitive to language when it comes to race. I have a neighbor, white guy, who is fond of saying "What up, my brotha?" and giving fist bumps. No big deal. One night though, after too many beers, he offers his fist to me and says "What up, my ni**a?"

I was mortified.

My initial reaction was to tell him never to say that again and he apologized and seemed somewhat ashamed. When I told my wife about it later she said that had she been there he'd have gotten an earful and that she was really disappointed to know that happened.

About a year later she and I are out to dinner with another friend of mine, also white, also fond of using phrases such as "Take that, bitches" and "Help a brotha out." We're having a conversation and he throws out "Ni**a, please."

Again, mortified.

My wife very calmly tells him to never use that word in her presence again and he offers multiple apologies.

All this to say that I bristle now when I hear white people say stuff like "Hook a brotha up." because I am, rightfully or not, afraid that the N-word may pop out next. Never heard Wood or anyone else on the show say it, but again, with my wife sitting there my mind flashed to the events I just mentioned.

How I see all of this fitting into the conversation brought up on the show about racist characters and use of the N-word is that you just never know how someone will react, especially if it's taken out of context. I was watching a Louis C.K. stand-up special a few weeks back and my wife walked in right as he used the N-word. Later she told me she was bothered to hear him say that and I had to explain that it was tied into a bit he had done earlier in the act. Regardless, from her vantage point she just sees a pasty white guy on TV saying "Ni**er". I'll never know the true sting of that word or how it feels to be imitated or mocked or hated or whatever (the closest I'll ever get is being bashed as an atheist or being made fun of 'cuz I'm bald. Boo-hoo.)

Another quick story - One time my wife and father-in-law go jogging. They walk into the street as a car is coming and the guy slams on his brakes, so my wife's dad waves an apology. As the dude drives off he rolls down the window and yells "Stupid fucking ni**er!" Needless to say my wife was shocked and saddened by this, and when I heard about it I was livid. I was ready to hunt that fucker down and remove his teeth with a hammer. Later I bring up the incident to my father-in-law and he laughs it off, saying, "That's not the first time I've heard that." Three different reactions to the same word. It's all relative to your personal connection to the word and your life experience. This is where education comes into play. When we read Huckleberry Finn in school our teacher introduced it by talking about the language. A bunch of suburban white kids need to know the hows and whys of our country's past and it does no good to sweeten it up or ignore it, but there needs to be context and an understanding of why certain language has a different impact and meaning for different people.

I liked all of that.

To me, there is no "nigga". Everybody saying it, from Jay-Z to Kanye, from Louis C.K. to the Grand Dragon of the KKK, and everybody in-between are saying "nigger." That's the word. And I hate it. And I hope it makes whoever reading this uncomfortable to have me point that out.

And yes, I know many people have different reasons for saying it different ways, but I don't care about their reasons. I really don't. And I make no apologies for not caring. Find a new word. People were fire-hosed and lynched and blown up and raped and enslaved behind that word. My life today will NEVER have the quality to it that millions of others take for granted because of that word (and neither will yours, black people. Don't be fooled.) As far as I am concerned, "nigger" is the black person's swastika.

Just hope for your grandchildren like our grandparents hoped for us. Possibly in yet another 200 years we'll get this shit right.

[dent309]

I know this is a little off topic, but I think Vince really dropped the ball on the outro music.  You will never have a better excuse(like you need one) to play can Jay-Z's classic "Can I Live" off the doubly classic Reasonable Doubt.
C'mon man!!!!

so here
< value=" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CDwljEbaMRg&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/CDwljEbaMRg&rel=1</a>

[Chris]

Not for nothing, but I was on the phone with a client one time and for some reason he asked me if I was a brother. I told him I wasn't but that my wife was black and he said "Ah, you are a brother then."  

Just to offer some clarification to my previous post - I'm admittedly overly sensitive to language when it comes to race. I have a neighbor, white guy, who is fond of saying "What up, my brotha?" and giving fist bumps. No big deal. One night though, after too many beers, he offers his fist to me and says "What up, my ni**a?"

I was mortified.

My initial reaction was to tell him never to say that again and he apologized and seemed somewhat ashamed. When I told my wife about it later she said that had she been there he'd have gotten an earful and that she was really disappointed to know that happened.

About a year later she and I are out to dinner with another friend of mine, also white, also fond of using phrases such as "Take that, bitches" and "Help a brotha out." We're having a conversation and he throws out "Ni**a, please."

Again, mortified.

My wife very calmly tells him to never use that word in her presence again and he offers multiple apologies.

All this to say that I bristle now when I hear white people say stuff like "Hook a brotha up." because I am, rightfully or not, afraid that the N-word may pop out next. Never heard Wood or anyone else on the show say it, but again, with my wife sitting there my mind flashed to the events I just mentioned.

How I see all of this fitting into the conversation brought up on the show about racist characters and use of the N-word is that you just never know how someone will react, especially if it's taken out of context. I was watching a Louis C.K. stand-up special a few weeks back and my wife walked in right as he used the N-word. Later she told me she was bothered to hear him say that and I had to explain that it was tied into a bit he had done earlier in the act. Regardless, from her vantage point she just sees a pasty white guy on TV saying "Ni**er". I'll never know the true sting of that word or how it feels to be imitated or mocked or hated or whatever (the closest I'll ever get is being bashed as an atheist or being made fun of 'cuz I'm bald. Boo-hoo.)

Another quick story - One time my wife and father-in-law go jogging. They walk into the street as a car is coming and the guy slams on his brakes, so my wife's dad waves an apology. As the dude drives off he rolls down the window and yells "Stupid fucking ni**er!" Needless to say my wife was shocked and saddened by this, and when I heard about it I was livid. I was ready to hunt that fucker down and remove his teeth with a hammer. Later I bring up the incident to my father-in-law and he laughs it off, saying, "That's not the first time I've heard that." Three different reactions to the same word. It's all relative to your personal connection to the word and your life experience. This is where education comes into play. When we read Huckleberry Finn in school our teacher introduced it by talking about the language. A bunch of suburban white kids need to know the hows and whys of our country's past and it does no good to sweeten it up or ignore it, but there needs to be context and an understanding of why certain language has a different impact and meaning for different people.

Maybe one of the best posts this forum has ever had.

[MatthewA]

Thanks, Chris.

Race can be such a sticky topic to address and language must be chosen carefully.

Most of the characters in my comic are analogues and/or amalgamations of existing properties and I recently attempted to devise a black character to fit into my "universe". The first name I came up with was Patrionyx, and then I thought of The African American, a man born in an African country and raised in the US. He was to follow a similar path as Steve Rogers and become a jingoist WWII super soldier and then frozen, revived later in the 1980's. The gags I came up with had to do with him wanting to still fight the Japanese and Germans and using horribly derogatory terms to describe the enemy, much to the dismay and disgust of his teammates. I couldn't do it though. I don't have the skills and finesse to pull off something like that and my wife agreed. She said too many people would simply be offended by the entire concept and it wasn't worth pursuing so I scrapped it. Too easy to fuck it up. You have to either use kid gloves or a sledgehammer to make something like that work and I knew I couldn't handle either one.

[Julian Lytle]

I know this is a little off topic, but I think Vince really dropped the ball on the outro music.  You will never have a better excuse(like you need one) to play can Jay-Z's classic "Can I Live" off the doubly classic Reasonable Doubt.
C'mon man!!!!

so here
< value=" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CDwljEbaMRg&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/CDwljEbaMRg&rel=1</a>

You know I was teasing Vince on twitter about using some Hood $#!+ for the intro.

I liked all of that.

To me, there is no "nigga". Everybody saying it, from Jay-Z to Kanye, from Louis C.K. to the Grand Dragon of the KKK, and everybody in-between are saying "nigger." That's the word. And I hate it. And I hope it makes whoever reading this uncomfortable to have me point that out.

And yes, I know many people have different reasons for saying it different ways, but I don't care about their reasons. I really don't. And I make no apologies for not caring. Find a new word. People were fire-hosed and lynched and blown up and raped and enslaved behind that word. My life today will NEVER have the quality to it that millions of others take for granted because of that word (and neither will yours, black people. Don't be fooled.) As far as I am concerned, "nigger" is the black person's swastika.

Just hope for your grandchildren like our grandparents hoped for us. Possibly in yet another 200 years we'll get this shit right.

You know I always respect that argument, feelings, and opinion but I never agree with it. The sad thing with comparing it to the Swastika was that is something that was appropriated from another culture and recontextualized into some that means hate.

Plus there are a few of us that is trying to be a bit respectful and use "My Ninja" in certain places.Cause Ninjas are always cool.

Oh and Rogue is close or a couple of months younger than Iceman and he's not 30 yet. He's younger than Spidey.

Teenage Julian made a chart. Adult Julian no longer has the chart but still keep the knowledge.

[David]

Oh and Rogue is close or a couple of months younger than Iceman and he's not 30 yet. He's younger than Spidey.

That's fine for Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends on a Saturday morning, but how is Scott and Hank and Warren older, yet Bobby's still weeks out of Xavier's first graduating class?

[New Mutant]

You know I always respect that argument, feelings, and opinion but I never agree with it. The sad thing with comparing it to the Swastika was that is something that was appropriated from another culture and recontextualized into some that means hate.

Sounds like my analogy applies perfectly. 

Plus there are a few of us that is trying to be a bit respectful and use "My Ninja" in certain places.Cause Ninjas are always cool.

See, you found a new word! 

I do appreciate it, though, Julian. You understand the principle behind the protest, even if you don't agree with the protest. Understanding is all I can ask for.

Oh and Rogue is close or a couple of months younger than Iceman and he's not 30 yet. He's younger than Spidey.

Teenage Julian made a chart. Adult Julian no longer has the chart but still keep the knowledge.

Because I'm in my Forties, I totally feel like the X-Men are in their thirties now.  I can't adopt the notion that I'm now twenty years older than the people I used to be YOUNGER than!

What? They are too people! 

[leafinsectman (Dan)]

I don't understand why people who aren't black feel the need to say the N-word. Even when drunk or angry. Shit, I feel super guilty even when that word enters my brain. If you're gonna say it to make a point then it better be a damn good point. And why not say N-word or Ninja like Julian said?

I'm probably repeating myself from another thread so I won't go into it any further. I remember talking about this already.

To Matthew: and I wish you'd move someplace where people around you wouldn't even dare utter that hateful word.

[Bobgar Ornelas]

That's fine for Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends on a Saturday morning, but how is Scott and Hank and Warren older, yet Bobby's still weeks out of Xavier's first graduating class?

  but..but..but..that's how it happened in the movies...it's not like they could have fucked those up now, right?

Right?

I actually like the movies, I just had to step out of being a comics fan and just take them as they are. Movies. Alternate interpretations, we accept it in print but we raise hell when we witness it in a new medium.

[David]

I actually like the movies, I just had to step out of being a comics fan and just take them as they are. Movies. Alternate interpretations, we accept it in print but we raise hell when we witness it in a new medium.

Exactly.

JokerJack killing the Waynes.  Barbara is Alfred's niece.  Harvey not only had his face warped by acid, it also changed his race.  Mystique didn't raise Rogue.  Victor Von Doom, the CEO of Von Doom Industries offers his classmate access to a space station.  Tom Sawyer is a member of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.  Sandman was involved in the death of Ben Parker (that's one that I find extremely distasteful because I feel it hits harder as a random, senseless act of violence and not something that has to tie into anyone's origin).

They are adaptations.  Based on characters and stories published in another medium.  Want the comics?  Read the comics.

Or watch Sin City.

[leafinsectman (Dan)]

Victor Von Doom, the CEO of Von Doom Industries offers his classmate access to a space station.

I know that this happened but I never remember it when I think about the FF movie. All I can think about is what's his name from Nip Tuck doing a not at all bad ass Doom.

By the way, I know Spidey 3 gets a lot of shit (and I'm not saying it isn't deserved) but damn did I love the action sequences as well as the final battle. It was like a Marvel Team-Up issue came to life! How can I hate it?

[David]

Spider-Man 3 is really good.  Even with Dunst stinking up the joint times three and the Sandman/Spidey connection, the trilogy is fun stuff.

[Julian Lytle]

That's fine for Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends on a Saturday morning, but how is Scott and Hank and Warren older, yet Bobby's still weeks out of Xavier's first graduating class?

Well that's because Scott, Warren and Jean were all the same age (17), Hank was the oldest close to 21, but Bobby was the youngest at 14. The first class wasn't all the same age. Please note I haven't read any of the first class comics or that Byrne early years thing. There was a comic in the 90s where Hank turned 30 so I then used that along with at the time Jubilee's printed age of 13 and what I knew of spidey's early years to triangulate an age. At that time Scott and dem of 25-26 ( I think Jean was a few months younger than warren and scott). So now I put Scott in his early 30s That keeps Bobby in his 20s since Spidey is never going to hit 30. So I put Rogue at most 27.

[Julian Lytle]

I still like Spidey. For everyone that cries about the piano and dancing in the movie i hit them with two words.

spider.
buggy.

 

[leafinsectman (Dan)]

Spider-Man 3 is really good.  Even with Dunst stinking up the joint times three and the Sandman/Spidey connection, the trilogy is fun stuff.

I still like Spidey. For everyone that cries about the piano and dancing in the movie i hit them with two words.

spider.
buggy.

 

I you guys.

To be perfectly honest, there's not a lot of comic book movies that I can't stand to watch. Haven't seen Catwoman because it creeps me out when I think about watching it. I saw Elektra and I can't watch that again. I tried when it was on tv but I couldn't do it. I fast forward to the good parts in X-Men 3. I sort of can't watch FF because of shitty Doom but I'm fine with the sequel mostly because of

Johnny going all Super Skrull and absorbing everyone's powers.

There might be a couple of others that I'm forgetting. Spidey 3 wouldn't be on that list though.

[Wood]

I lost it when everyone confused ("legitimate actress") Tia Carrere with ("porn star") Asia Carrera

1) Tia is not legitimate in any way, shape or form
2) Asia isn't my stee-lo, but she definitely gets into her work (or it gets into her, ba dump bump)