11 O'Clock Comics Episode 186

[Gordie]

I thought the CBLDF thing was really unfocused this year.  I have no problem with the CBLDF in general, but I fail to see how gay rights are a free speech issue. I can see how they are a liberty issue in general, and an equality issue, all of which are valid - but way too much of this read as nothing more than polemic. I thought the Wagner piece was particularly embarrassing for a creator of his caliber. We saw that shit on West Wing 10 years ago, Matt.

What is wrong with polemic? Should we not attack or discuss an archaic idea, that has been written down in some antiquated book of stories? People are demonized every day, based on outdated concepts and we're all just supposed to nod our heads in agreement and look the other way?
If Matt feels strongly about an idea, isn't it his "right" to tell his story? I thought writing and storytelling was a way to help explain the world around us. Obviously the issue hasn't gone away and the inconsistencies of the bible are still there. The hypocrisy should be pointed out as much as possible and engaging in a strong debate against it should be applauded, not dismissed.

[Bobgar Ornelas]

Ah, just had a readthrough the posts pages before mine -- I thought I'd be the only one not liking stupid gangster rap posse.  Though seeing Slurmo's support for it has changed my mind completely made me remember it being covered on Earth2Podcast. (right?  Somehow I didn't hate it as much when I heard it then.) I still hate it. *ptui*

We only covered the first issue Mr Mutant, Vince is talking about the second issue. Why bring that up?
Well, to be honest, the first issue isn't as insane or vulgar as the second. The first issue although extremely violent has no nudity or graphic sex depictions. I have a feeling that some people who might like the first issue might be appalled at the second issue. 

Just from our conversations here and twitter I know that this book will never be your type of book, Alan. I have a ton of respect for you for the way you stood your ground on another issue that fired people up earlier this year. I understand where you are coming from. 

Let's see if Jason's triumphant return calls for a musical episode of eoc. How about it guys? 11 o'clock barbershop quartet for Alan?

 

[New Mutant]

We only covered the first issue Mr Mutant, Vince is talking about the second issue. Why bring that up?
Well, to be honest, the first issue isn't as insane or vulgar as the second. The first issue although extremely violent has no nudity or graphic sex depictions. I have a feeling that some people who might like the first issue might be appalled at the second issue. 

Just from our conversations here and twitter I know that this book will never be your type of book, Alan. I have a ton of respect for you for the way you stood your ground on another issue that fired people up earlier this year. I understand where you are coming from. 

Let's see if Jason's triumphant return calls for a musical episode of eoc. How about it guys? 11 o'clock barbershop quartet for Alan?

 

I'm not wrong, right?? David was singing REAL GOOD, right??!

In honesty, I know people are going to love what they love. I was more reacting in-the-moment to how hard Vince's powers of persuasion was cramming the book at me. (yeah, just to me--no one else, of course) You know he's got that power to cloud men's minds--I was typing for my very life!! It was like Vince was right here, waving that book at me like a big phallus, no wine, no candlelight--just wanna go straight to the burn!!

It's a little odd, but I think Julian is more offended by it than me.  I just don't like gangsta rap in any form, parody or not. It's not my life or where I live, or any of my personal goals.  But maybe knowing Bruh'man is a white dude gave me an extra zots in my hinky parts. But hey, party on. Nobody's stealing my air so whatevs. 

[Bobgar Ornelas]

I still want you to do your whitesploitation comic though 

I mean I've sat through a few mexploitation films  it's time to spread the love! 

[Julian Lytle]

I'm not wrong, right?? David was singing REAL GOOD, right??!

In honesty, I know people are going to love what they love. I was more reacting in-the-moment to how hard Vince's powers of persuasion was cramming the book at me. (yeah, just to me--no one else, of course) You know he's got that power to cloud men's minds--I was typing for my very life!! It was like Vince was right here, waving that book at me like a big phallus, no wine, no candlelight--just wanna go straight to the burn!!

It's a little odd, but I think Julian is more offended by it than me.  I just don't like gangsta rap in any form, parody or not. It's not my life or where I live, or any of my personal goals.  But maybe knowing Bruh'man is a white dude gave me an extra zots in my hinky parts. But hey, party on. Nobody's stealing my air so whatevs. 

I probably am. I take Hip Hop very seriously. I just don't think I want to read it. I get the sense that it is a very UGLY book.

[Julian Lytle]

I still want you to do your whitesploitation comic though 

Isn't that most media? 

[stvnhthr]

What is wrong with polemic? Should we not attack or discuss an archaic idea, that has been written down in some antiquated book of stories? People are demonized every day, based on outdated concepts and we're all just supposed to nod our heads in agreement and look the other way?
If Matt feels strongly about an idea, isn't it his "right" to tell his story? I thought writing and storytelling was a way to help explain the world around us. Obviously the issue hasn't gone away and the inconsistencies of the bible are still there. The hypocrisy should be pointed out as much as possible and engaging in a strong debate against it should be applauded, not dismissed.

The problem was Matt used a straw man argument which is false and has been routinely discredited.  He misunderstood the Bible verse, took it out of context, and then attacked a faulty interpretation. 

He has a right to tell a story, but he did a poor job of researching what he was talking about.

Morality has no expiration date and so is incapable of being outdated or archaic.  Social standards on the other hand fluctuate wildly.  The mere fact you are trying to distinguish between what is right and wrong infers you believe there is a standard, that we should all agree on some basic principles. 

The book of Leviticus is not a book of only moral standards, it is also written specifically to the Jews for them to be ceremonially clean.  The Hebrew word "toevah" (translated "abomination" and "detestable act") is a cultural term, not a moral term.  Some ceremonially laws are also moral laws, some aren't.  Homosexuality was given certain punishments for the people of Israel, but these didn't carry over to all people.  Human effort or conforming to ceremony is not how God chooses to relate to people, since Christ it is based on Grace, not moral conformity.  Living by the law has always resulted in people hopelessly breaking God's moral law, it is given to show everyone is a moral failure.

Homosexuality is not God's idea for sexuality, but it is also not the worse sin, not the only sin, and it no longer carries the Jewish specific ceremonial uncleanliness punishment of death.

In my house it is wrong to lie, my kids get punished for it.  Telling lies is always wrong, but in our culture at large you seldom get punished for it even though our culture recognizes it is wrong.  My laws for my house reflect the greater laws of the culture, but I don't try to punish everyone caught lying.  I would not try to apply my home's punishments to the culture, they don't belong to my house and are not subject to the same discipline.  Israel as a nation (God's house) had specific laws and punishments just for them to be a separate people, different than all the nations around them.  Some of those laws were moral, some cultural.  Some still apply to all people, some don't.  Moral laws still apply, cultural specific laws don't.

[David]

I don't care what book it's written in, homosexuality isn't a "sin", nor is it "wrong".

And I have no problem with a character in a comicbook story using a faulty interpretation, if that's what the character believes.

[Gordie]

I don't care what book it's written in, homosexuality isn't a "sin", nor is it "wrong".

Exactly. 
"Homosexuality is not God's idea for sexuality."
Only missionary and only for procreation. I guess since my wife can't have babies= no sex in my loving marriage.

[aelfinn]

I don't care what book it's written in, homosexuality isn't a "sin", nor is it "wrong".

exactly

[Bobgar Ornelas]

And I have no problem with a character in a comicbook story using a faulty interpretation, if that's what the character believes.

people love Mangeto isn't he a racist, speciesist, and all around bad guy (except when he's "good")

can we just pretend that the story is the story and that it isn't Wagner under that Grendel mask?

no? hmmm...coincidentally this thread appeared today 

http://bullpenbulletinspodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=14146.0

[Wood]

I think Marra isn't as clever as Vince thinks he is.

 

But I LOVE that Vince and David and Chris and the rest of you mugs can find treasures at every turn, even if it's fools gold to others. 

[leafinsectman (Dan)]

I don't care what book it's written in, homosexuality isn't a "sin", nor is it "wrong".

I could go on and on about this until I Hulk out but what would be the point? All the hateful shit that goes on really breaks my heart.

[Jeppe]

I don't care what book it's written in, homosexuality isn't a "sin", nor is it "wrong".

 

[SuperSpel]

sadly they are sold out as well. I just checked for you

I know they are out there...

Thanks Slurmo!

[judekill]

I think Marra isn't as clever as Vince thinks he is.

 

But I LOVE that Vince and David and Chris and the rest of you mugs can find treasures at every turn, even if it's fools gold to others. 

 

[Former Poet Laureate]

What is wrong with polemic? Should we not attack or discuss an archaic idea, that has been written down in some antiquated book of stories? People are demonized every day, based on outdated concepts and we're all just supposed to nod our heads in agreement and look the other way?
If Matt feels strongly about an idea, isn't it his "right" to tell his story? I thought writing and storytelling was a way to help explain the world around us. Obviously the issue hasn't gone away and the inconsistencies of the bible are still there. The hypocrisy should be pointed out as much as possible and engaging in a strong debate against it should be applauded, not dismissed.

Polemic usually makes terrible stories, and Wagner's was one.  Again, it had nothing to do with free speech, which is what I thought the freaking book was about.  If Wagner wants to take on the Bible, have at it - just put it in the American Atheists fund raising issue. I failed to see the pertinence of this story in the context of this book, and overall felt the book was very unfocused on what it's very important core message should be - free speech rights are paramount, they need to be constantly defended, or they will erode. The book was just a huge miss for me.

[Andrew]

Really?

Yes, really.

It's nothing personal - I've got no beef with Jeff, but firstly 9 times outta ten the show guest has a terrible mic/connection and it's an ordeal to listen to.

Secondly, they and their work receives soft treatment.

And thirdly, it means less time for the usual shenanigans.

As for GRP, the art style ain't my thing but I would have loved to hear Vince gab on about it a bit more. It's always enjoyable to listen to when someone is passionate about or just really into something so much.

A good ep, looking forward to the next one.

[stvnhthr]

Only missionary and only for procreation. I guess since my wife can't have babies= no sex in my loving marriage.

That ain't God's idea either!  You should check out Song of Solomon sometime.  God created sex and wants it enjoyed often.  Once you understand the sexual imagery discussed in the Bible you begin to wonder how prudish concepts ever got associated with the church.