Munden's Bar
News: Check out our recommendations in the 11 O'Clock Comics Amazon Store!
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. 05:05 AM | Saturday, May 18, 2013


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ... 27   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Watchmen Prequels - It's Official  (Read 10718 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Robert
New God
******

Karma: 2753
Offline Offline

Posts: 2929


I must be in the front roooow!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #140 on: 05:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

if peter david were on the forum i'd give him karma.

You know this!  Yes
Logged

Formerly of Vernson fame.   Glad to meet ya!

Twitter @Vernson

Amazon Wish List
LA Rabbit
New God
******

Karma: 1118
Offline Offline

Posts: 2219


Andrew


View Profile
« Reply #141 on: 05:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

but I don't really think that makes a difference.  It's still something they signed and agreed to live up to.

The other way I think about it....If Creator X decides to haggle on the terms of his work-for-hire contract and DC says, "Screw this.  We'll just get Creator Y to write it.  I'm pretty sure he'll sign the agreement without haggling."....then that means that Creator X hasn't made himself unique enough to the publisher.  If the Creator is just an interchangeable piece rather than a hot commodity, then he's going to get screwed a little bit, but that happens in all fields of employment.

While I agree with your summation, I think "he's going to get screwed a little bit" just reflects our own biases when viewing business in America. You have an optimistic view that market forces will appropriately allocate the correct amount of consideration to be exchanged within an acceptable margin of error, whereas I view it1 as the system can be gamed and it is almost always gamed by the entity with more juice. That being said, I think I prefer your outlook to my own cynical one and you will likely outlive me2. Karma. 


1This view would probably surprise some that only know me professionally
2http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/05/us-optimist-health-idUSTRE5247NO20090305
Logged
steve bryant
New God
******

Karma: 25494
Offline Offline

Posts: 2771


Preorders make or break creator-owned comics


View Profile Email
« Reply #142 on: 05:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

That article really sums up all the arguments.  There are a couple of remarks I found very surprising.  Particularly Jamal Igle who to the best of my knowledge has worked (and continues to work) at DC since day one of his career.

I think Jamal's first work was on Alex Simmons' Blackjack and Race Against Time books (and maybe Shi for Billy Tucci?). Additionally, he did Venture at Image with Jay Faerber around the same time that Invincible and Firebreather launched.

I'm pretty sure he's done some other non-DC stuff, too.
Logged

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBryantArt
I post artwork at stevebryant.tumblr.com ComicTwart.com and AtomicTiki.blogspot.com
JasonF
B.P.R.D.
****

Karma: 348
Offline Offline

Posts: 700



View Profile Email
« Reply #143 on: 05:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

I think Jamal's first work was on Alex Simmons' Blackjack and Race Against Time books (and maybe Shi for Billy Tucci?). Additionally, he did Venture at Image with Jay Faerber around the same time that Invincible and Firebreather launched.

I'm pretty sure he's done some other non-DC stuff, too.

He did a New Warriors revival at Marvel with Jay Faerber, and I think a Wolverine mini with Jay as well.  But I took erikh42 to be saying that Jamal has been associated with DC for his entire career, not that he only worked for DC.
Logged
steve bryant
New God
******

Karma: 25494
Offline Offline

Posts: 2771


Preorders make or break creator-owned comics


View Profile Email
« Reply #144 on: 05:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

He did a New Warriors revival at Marvel with Jay Faerber, and I think a Wolverine mini with Jay as well.  But I took erikh42 to be saying that Jamal has been associated with DC for his entire career, not that he only worked for DC.

Yeah, I got that. I was just correcting the "from day 1" part of his post because I think Jamal spent about a half-decade doing indie comics before working for DC.
Logged

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBryantArt
I post artwork at stevebryant.tumblr.com ComicTwart.com and AtomicTiki.blogspot.com
electric mayhem
Alien Legionnaire
***

Karma: 157
Offline Offline

Posts: 325


appearing here and there..


View Profile
« Reply #145 on: 05:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

only one woman artist on this venture?  The very nerve of DC...
Logged

Wormworth
B.P.R.D.
****

Karma: 586
Offline Offline

Posts: 572



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #146 on: 06:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

Two things occurred to me reading this thread (plus the comments of the pros on the matter):

One: Watchmen has garnered a huge readership and interest as a graphic novel - and it sells well in bookstores, why put it out in floppies first? It would have been ballsy to put the stories out as OGNs. I know, I know, they want to sell these twice or thrice or four times in different formats to the ever-loyal, small comics readership.

Two: I think it would have been more interesting if Grant Morrison had done his take on the Charlton characters, left that open-ended and let the others build the story from there. It would have left room for homage and reflection to Watchmen as well, but it wouldn't have been so derivative and wouldn't have needed to be prequels.

But I know it wouldn't have had the same iconic "eventness" to it.
Logged

Scotchlander
Fear Agent
*****

Karma: 1426
Offline Offline

Posts: 1029



View Profile Email
« Reply #147 on: 06:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

Two things occurred to me reading this thread (plus the comments of the pros on the matter):

One: Watchmen has garnered a huge readership and interest as a graphic novel - and it sells well in bookstores, why put it out in floppies first? It would have been ballsy to put the stories out as OGNs. I know, I know, they want to sell these twice or thrice or four times in different formats to the ever-loyal, small comics readership.

Two: I think it would have been more interesting if Grant Morrison had done his take on the Charlton characters, left that open-ended and let the others build the story from there. It would have left room for homage and reflection to Watchmen as well, but it wouldn't have been so derivative and wouldn't have needed to be prequels.

But I know it wouldn't have had the same iconic "eventness" to it.

yes they couldn't really have called it Watchmen I suppose but I see what you're getting at, neat idea
Logged
Jordan
Fear Agent
*****

Karma: 1683
Offline Offline

Posts: 1461



View Profile Email
« Reply #148 on: 07:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

I agree with Peter David. 

That is a killer lineup of creators; I would buy their work pretty much no matter what. 
Logged

It’s always a longer walk to the men’s room buckaroo
Hassan T
Fear Agent
*****

Karma: 1690
Offline Offline

Posts: 1531



View Profile
« Reply #149 on: 08:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

I agree with Peter David. 

That is a killer lineup of creators; I would buy their work pretty much no matter what. 

There is a lot of good discussion (as always) on this forum. Jordan (and Peter David) said it best.
Logged
S. Earl
New God
******

Karma: 2144
Offline Offline

Posts: 3905


Brother my cup is empty


View Profile
« Reply #150 on: 08:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

There is a lot of good discussion (as always) on this forum. Jordan (and Peter David) said it best.

And there will be great discussion on tonight's show (I assume.) Always stoked when big news, be it for good or for ill, breaks on a Wednesday.
Logged

https://twitter.com/stevenEchambers

"I've seen as much misery outta them movin to justify themselves as them that set out to do harm." - Doc Cochran
Dean S.
New God
******

Karma: 2559
Offline Offline

Posts: 2548



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #151 on: 08:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

While I agree with your summation, I think "he's going to get screwed a little bit" just reflects our own biases when viewing business in America. You have an optimistic view that market forces will appropriately allocate the correct amount of consideration to be exchanged within an acceptable margin of error, whereas I view it1 as the system can be gamed and it is almost always gamed by the entity with more juice. That being said, I think I prefer your outlook to my own cynical one and you will likely outlive me2. Karma. 


1This view would probably surprise some that only know me professionally
2http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/05/us-optimist-health-idUSTRE5247NO20090305

Yeah....that's probably about right.  I do think the market is efficient in the LONG-TERM, but it does some really weird, random and lousy things in the shorter term.  Karma to you as well.
Logged

Contributor at weeklycomicbookreview.com
Twitter @dfstell
JohnBoman
Alien Legionnaire
***

Karma: 121
Offline Offline

Posts: 329



View Profile Email
« Reply #152 on: 09:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

I have decided that I shall celebrate this momentous occasion in the history of Comic Book Publishing, by sitting down and ordering a copy of Lost Girls instead  Hearts
Logged
JohnBoman
Alien Legionnaire
***

Karma: 121
Offline Offline

Posts: 329



View Profile Email
« Reply #153 on: 10:02 PM | Wednesday, February 01, 2012 »

Loved Dave McKean's official tweet response:

"DC are publishing prequels to Watchmen. Idiotic. No wonder their new logo looks like a sticking plaster revealing a huge C. What a bunch of..."

 Roll On Floor Laughing

No love for DC there  No
Logged
S. Earl
New God
******

Karma: 2144
Offline Offline

Posts: 3905


Brother my cup is empty


View Profile
« Reply #154 on: 12:02 AM | Thursday, February 02, 2012 »

Man, JMS should dedicate himself to writing as much as he does his Facebook posts and maybe he'd be more timely.
Quote
Rather than answer the questions about Watchmen piecemeal in separate topics, I figured I’d address the key ones here, all in one place.

Let me start out by tackling head-on the most frequent question: “how would you feel if Babylon 5 was being done without your permission?” It’s a fair question, and it needs to be fairly answered...but it has to be an honest comparison, apples to apples, not apples to pomegranates.

First, we have to take the word “permission” off the table. Warner Bros. owns Babylon 5 lock, stock and phased-plasma guns, just as DC owns the Watchmen characters. DC wasn’t making creator-owned deals back in the 80s. Moreover, they were variations on characters that had been previously created for the Charleton Comics universe. Main point is: neither of us owns these characters in any significant legal way. Consequently, neither company needs our permission to do anything.

But I get that we’re talking about the emotional aspect of all this, not the legal stuff, which is pretty cut and dry. So again: apples to apples.

How would I feel if Babylon 5 were being made and I were shut out of anything to do with it, despite my desire to be involved? I’d feel pretty crummy about it. But as it happens, that has absolutely nothing to do with this situation in any way, manner, shape or form.

If at any point in the last 25 years, Alan had said, “you know, there’s a Watchmen story I’d like to tell,” there’s no question that DC would have given him both the freedom to tell that story and a check big enough to dim the lights at their offices for a week. And there were frequent overtures for him to do just that. In 2005, DC actually offered to give him ownership of the characters if he’d come back to do more stories with them.

They wanted his involvement, solicited his involvement, would have been thrilled at his involvement. He declined at every point. Fair enough. It’s his choice, and it’s his right to make it.

So now – apples to apples – let’s make the B5 comparison. Let’s say Warner Bros. came to me and said, “we want to do more Babylon 5, and we want you to run the whole thing. We’ll pay you anything you want, give you a proper budget, and you will have complete creative freedom.” (Actually, they made that offer last year, and I said yes enthusiastically, because I love these characters and that universe. At the eleventh hour the distribution system they had been trying to put together fell apart, and so did this, but let’s stick to the subject, shall we?)

So let’s say that Warners makes that offer, and I said, “No, I don’t want it, take your accursed money, your big budget and your complete creative freedom and begone, get thee behind me Satan!” Let’s say they came back and said “Okay, then how about we pay you vast sums of money just to consult? How about that?”

“No,” let’s say I cried, “no, no, a thousand times no.”

“How about just to meet with us? Just for an hour?”

“No, absolutely not, nuh-uh, no way, not a chance.”

“What if we sweeten the deal? What if we offer to give you full ownership of Babylon 5, legally and contractually, so you own it? How about that?”

“Fie, I tell you, fie!”

Well, where does that leave us?

If Warners offered me creative freedom, money and a budget to do the show the way I wanted, up to and including my completely owning the show, and I said no to that deal, and if after Warners waited TWENTY FIVE YEARS for me to change my mind they finally decided to go ahead and make B5 without me...then I would have absolutely zero right to complain about it. Because it was my choice to remove myself from the process, it wasn’t something foisted upon me by anybody else.

And frankly, and I’m only talking about me here, if I made that choice, I would be an idiot. Because I love those characters and that universe, and would greatly enjoy the chance to play with them again. Every TV writer in town would show up at my door just to personally kick the crap out of me, and they'd be right to do it.

On to the next topic.

“These were one-off characters, they were never intended to be used again.” A really good point whose only problem is that it’s not actually true. That was certainly never DC’s perception of the characters, and Alan himself floated an idea about doing a Minutemen prequel back in 1985.

Alan didn’t walk away from Watchmen for artistic reasons, he walked away over contract language regarding ownership issues. It was a contract dispute. In time that morphed into something else, but that was not what happened at the time.

“These characters are sacred, nobody else should write them.”

If we’re going to talk about the sanctity of characters, let me point to an observation I made in one of the interviews:

“Alan has spent most of the last decade writing some very, very good stories about characters created by other writers, including Alice (from Wonderland), Dorothy (from Oz), Wendy (from Peter Pan), as well as Captain Nemo, the Invisible Man, Jekyll and Hyde and Professor Moriarty. I think one loses a little of the moral high ground to say, “I can write characters created by Jules Verne, HG Wells, Robert Louis Stevenson, Arthur Conan Doyle and Frank Baum, but it’s wrong for anyone else to write my characters.”

Some folks have replied to this with “well, Alan says this is different because he’s using those characters in different situations.” (I’m not vouching that Alan said that, only that this is the most common reply. If he never said anything to that effect I’m happy to be corrected.)

I’m really good with the English language, but I’ve turned that sentence over several times and I can’t parse it in any logical way. What the heck does it even mean? The moment you have Mr. Hyde do anything not in Robert Louis Stevenson’s book, it’s a “different situation.” I think that the argument being made here is that by putting Mr. Hyde in a modern context, then that makes it Alan’s and that makes it legally and morally okay.

If that’s true, then I invite Alan to try that with James Bond, or Jason Bourne, or any other character where the writer or the estate is still around to fight for the rights of their characters. Legally, yes, you can do what you wish with public domain characters. But one ends up on a slippery moral slope to say that all of these other writers' characters are fair game but Alan’s characters are sacred on a moral or emotional basis.

I would suggest that there are just as many people around the world who hold Wendy from Peter Pan sacred, or who might think it untoward that Alan had Mr. Hyde literally sodomize the Invisible Man TO DEATH after the latter serially raped a bunch of girls at a private school. How would Robert Louis Stevenson or H.G. Wells have viewed such a story?

Despite this, somehow, by Alan’s lights, that’s not just okay, it is right and proper. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have done it. Alan’s a genius, and if it were in my power I’d set him up with a big distribution system, ten million dollars, and publish anything he wrote, up to and including the phone book.

I’m just suggesting that one needs to be consistent in one's moral stance if one wishes that moral stance to be taken seriously.

“This will dilute the legacy of the original Watchmen.”

Can’t happen. The book is the book is the book. It will always be up on the shelf. You can read it alone, or after the prequels, or before...it doesn’t change a word of it. The original book has twenty five years of legacy standing behind it. It’s not that fragile. It’s a work of art, and art endures.

“So how come you left Thor because they were messing with the story?”

Apples, meet oranges. Thor was a work in process, versus a finished work in the case of Watchmen. No one's suggesting a mid-course correction in the original book. I would have been happy to remain on Thor for decades, but when I saw the ominous approach of an Event that would once again erase or damage the story that I had worked so hard to create, I opted out. By contrast, nobody is infringing on a story Alan wants to write. Finally, again, opting out of Thor was my choice, just as it’s Alan’s choice not to be involved in any further Watchmen projects. I have no more right to complain about what came afterward than...well, anyone else in that situation.

“You didn’t like what Mongoose Publishing did with Babylon 5.”

True. Leaving aside that they were trying to include novels into a licensing contract that was intended only for game books and reference...leaving aside that instead of going to quality writers they picked up fan fiction on the cheap from amateur writers...the books were dreadful and not in keeping with the standard that I applied to anything done in the B5 universe. I’d bounced a couple of properly authorized and sanctioned novels previously because I didn’t feel they were up to snuff. The quality was the issue, not my involvement, because under contract I was involved and had approval. Had the books been better, they would’ve come out. They weren’t, and they didn’t. Apples and oranges.

I think those are all the major points that have been repeatedly brought up here and online elsewhere. To which I would add only the following codicil.

When I met with the others in New York to discuss these books, I was in awe of the assembled talent. These were, and are, some of the brightest lights in the comic business. (And me, holding up the rear.) Listening to Brian A, I frankly thought I should be sitting at the children’s table, not here. And beside me was Len Wein, who was involved with the original Watchmen books. Amazing.

I wish you could’ve been there. I wish you could’ve seen the passion, the care, the creativity in their eyes and in their voices. There was no talk of money, or of deals, it was all about digging into characters for whom we all shared a profound reverence and appreciation. No detail was too small to delve into. What really happened to this character, who died or disappeared? Why did this other character dissolve into madness and alcohol? Who the hell was the Twilight Lady? There was an excitement and a dedication to preserve the quality of the characters that I wish you could have been present to witness firsthand.

It. Was. Awesome.

I have always put a great emphasis on doing right by the money fans have to spend on product. This is because I come from ridiculously poor circumstances, and equally ridiculous fannish circumstances. I saved all summer to buy a membership in the Supermen of America Club. Another summer got me a wonderful envelope from FOOM. I was the only kid in my neighborhood who not only ordered a pair of X-Ray Specs, but expected them to actually work...and was devastated when they didn’t.

So I’ve always viewed things from a perspective of, “Is this going to be worth somebody’s hard earned cash?” I won’t speak of my stuff, because the specter of enlightened self-interest raises its head...but when I think of what Brian and Darwyn and the others are doing with their books, the stories they’ve chosen to tell, and the reaction I think these stories will meet, the quality of the art and the storytelling...for me, as a fan, the answer is an enthusiastic “hell, yes.”

The books will speak for themselves.

Everything else is just foreplay.

Logged

https://twitter.com/stevenEchambers

"I've seen as much misery outta them movin to justify themselves as them that set out to do harm." - Doc Cochran
RickV
B.P.R.D.
****

Karma: 187
Offline Offline

Posts: 698


taleran1
View Profile Email
« Reply #155 on: 05:02 AM | Thursday, February 02, 2012 »

The fact that he can compare LoEG and Lost Girls to this with a straight face is staggering especially after his large talk about Apple vs. Apples. They aren't even close to the same thing.

The great thing about this news is that it is getting some amazing writing done on comics.

http://4thletter.net/2012/02/newsarama-needs-to-do-better/
« Last Edit: 05:02 AM | Thursday, February 02, 2012 by RickV » Logged

S. Earl
New God
******

Karma: 2144
Offline Offline

Posts: 3905


Brother my cup is empty


View Profile
« Reply #156 on: 05:02 AM | Thursday, February 02, 2012 »

The fact that h can compare LoEG and Lost Girls to this with a straight face is staggering especially after he large talk about Apple vs. Apples. They aren't even close to the same thing.

The great thing about this news is that it is getting some amazing writing done on comics.

http://4thletter.net/2012/02/newsarama-needs-to-do-better/

Good find. David Brothers is on point as always.
This part about sacraficing quality for positivity in the name of shilling is dead on.
Logged

https://twitter.com/stevenEchambers

"I've seen as much misery outta them movin to justify themselves as them that set out to do harm." - Doc Cochran
Wood
Administrator
*****

Karma: 65374
Offline Offline

Posts: 12988


Rock Hard, Bitches!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #157 on: 06:02 AM | Thursday, February 02, 2012 »

Good find. David Brothers is on point as always.
This part about sacraficing quality for positivity in the name of shilling is dead on.

That's one way of looking at it  Roll Eyes
Logged

So Good...You'll Shake Your Fist At Us!!!
JimN
Eternal
*******

Karma: 11726
Offline Offline

Posts: 7261


Read Baltimore: The Curse Bells!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #158 on: 08:02 AM | Thursday, February 02, 2012 »

The fact that he can compare LoEG and Lost Girls to this with a straight face is staggering especially after his large talk about Apple vs. Apples. They aren't even close to the same thing.

Actually, they're arguably far more egregious examples of an author taking characters he didn't create and using them in works that are "unnecessary", "disrespectful of the source material", "telling stories that don't need to be told", etc. Many of the arguments applied to Watchmen and why Moore and Gibbons' creations shouldn't be used again can be applied to those works.

I thought the best thing about that long commentary from JMS was the ending. He's right, the books will speak for themselves and judgment on them should be reserved until they've actually been released and read. It sounds like the creators involved are enthusiastic and we know they're talented so it's not exactly impossible that they could produce something worthwhile in these mini-series. I doubt they will all work but hopefully, some of them will be quite good.
Logged

Please visit my blog at www.jimnelsonart.blogspot.com
Follow me on twitter as MothmanJim
RickV
B.P.R.D.
****

Karma: 187
Offline Offline

Posts: 698


taleran1
View Profile Email
« Reply #159 on: 08:02 AM | Thursday, February 02, 2012 »

Actually, they're arguably far more egregious examples of an author taking characters he didn't create and using them in works that are "unnecessary", "disrespectful of the source material", "telling stories that don't need to be told", etc. Many of the arguments applied to Watchmen and why Moore and Gibbons' creations shouldn't be used again can be applied to those works.

I thought the best thing about that long commentary from JMS was the ending. He's right, the books will speak for themselves and judgment on them should be reserved until they've actually been released and read. It sounds like the creators involved are enthusiastic and we know they're talented so it's not exactly impossible that they could produce something worthwhile in these mini-series. I doubt they will all work but hopefully, some of them will be quite good.

Except LoEG or Lost Girls never outright claims to be sequels to the original novels because they aren't. The difference is clear enough in the titles. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Lost Girls, Before Watchmen, one of these three does not belong.

On top of that the fact that it is reworking of the characters in a universe that was not the one presented in any of the original novels, added to the fact that they were free use characters in general.

The problem is the fact that they link it directly to be tying into the original work.
Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ... 27   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.15 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines

Copyright 11 O'Clock Comics, 2012
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM website security