Watchmen Prequels - It's Official

[JimN]

My coherence kinda went out the window at the end you said "Why should they respect his wishes about this?"

All that I have left to say is simply if a creator of something asks you to not do something who has created a body of work that unquestionably enriched the medium (I mean this of anyone). You going against that sentiment as a creator working within this industry to me is a fundamental lack of respect and I have nothing further to do you with you.

If that's how you feel about it, that's obviously your prerogative.

I also really dislike how people with 25 years of hindsight are so quick to make it Alan Moore's fault that is all kinds of bullshit.

Hindsight has nothing do with it, Rick. Whose fault is it that Moore signed a bad contract if not his own?

I've been working under freelance contracts of one kind or another for my entire career and before I even signed the first one, I understood that it's important to read and understand what you're signing. If you're giving up rights that may be important to you, understand what rights you're surrendering. If you've created something and want to retain the rights to it, or want those rights to revert back to you, make sure the language concerning those rights is crystal clear. If you aren't sure, consult a lawyer. If Moore didn't do those things and insure that the rights he wanted would revert back to him, that's his fault. He wasn't a child, he was an adult, experienced professional. It was his responsibility to make sure the contract was fair to him, nobody else's. That's not bullshit. That's just reality. When he signed the deal, he agreed to it's terms. He made a choice and if he regrets that choice, if DC screwed him, that's regrettable but it was avoidable.

[RickV]

Okay maybe fault isn't the exactly the right word. However the climate, the people he was signing it with, the situation around that location were much different 25 years ago.

I am not saying it was boneheaded to not have read it over closer everyone does that it is human. No one has ever been discounting that legally everything is in DC's ballpark it isn't about the legal side of the proceedings at all.

[JimN]

See this is the part I hate. You're telling people what THEIR issue is and if it's valid or not. Not everybody is that hardbody Watchmen needing to stand on its own. Some people (myself and some others) just think it's wack, played out and a waste of resources. They could be making new shit. They could be seriously trying new things and ways to tell stories. They could do a lot of things. But in the end their lame asses is still stuck in the 1980s.

You've got me there, Julian. I apologize. I think I even acknowledged elsewhere that this is about different things to different people so I shouldn't have made a generalization suggesting it's all about one thing. To Moore and many of the people upset over this topic, it's about Moore's wishes. However, to others, it's about poor use of quality creators and resources, repeating or perpetuating old patterns, etc.

Jim

[JimN]

Okay maybe fault isn't the exactly the right word. However the climate, the people he was signing it with, the situation around that location were much different 25 years ago.

Perhaps but it wasn't that different. Contracts were still contracts and the responsibilities involved in signing them were the same. Creator's rights were a big issue and there's no way Moore wasn't aware of that. There were mainstream creators in comics already doing creator-owned work by that time for companies like First and Pacific.

I am not saying it was boneheaded to not have read it over closer everyone does that it is human.

It's human but not everyone does that, especially not when the contract concerns the rights to something they worked hard to create.

No one has ever been discounting that legally everything is in DC's ballpark it isn't about the legal side of the proceedings at all.

I understand that. My point in bringing it up is that I think Moore's apparently casual attitude about the contract has implications for how important this stuff actually was to him at the time. He obviously wanted the rights but apparently not enough to make sure he would get them. It makes me wonder how much of his current attitude has to do with Watchmen becoming a widely recognized comics classic. I can sympathize with the frustration and regret he must feel over how it all worked out but I don't have a problem with what DC is doing now or with people choosing to participate in the project. If the rights were still at issue, I'd feel differently.

[RickV]

Kinda the same post but it was re purposed and put in a more official context:
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/04/18/creator-rights-before-watchmen-avengers-moore-kirby/

[S. Earl]

Kinda the same post but it was re purposed and put in a more official context:
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/04/18/creator-rights-before-watchmen-avengers-moore-kirby/

I can't even begin to meet him half way on the Avengers part of the article.

[JimN]

Kinda the same post but it was re purposed and put in a more official context:
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/04/18/creator-rights-before-watchmen-avengers-moore-kirby/

Thanks for the link, although I think he's really stretching things by equating Moore's situation to Kirby's. The circumstances and the degree of injustice are very different.

Brothers points out that both Marvel and DC are "making bank off the back of these guys in the form of movies, comics, games, toys, and everything else under the sun" and then talks about "The lack of grace, of basic dignity being afforded" to Moore and Kirby (or Kirby's family) but my understanding is that Moore, unlike Kirby, has been offered significant financial rewards by DC and he has turned them down and/or re-directed them elsewhere. Unlike Kirby, it seems he has repeatedly been given the opportunity to profit from his efforts. Without knowing the exact details of those opportunities, it's impossible to say whether they were still bad deals for Moore or not but personally, I'm not sure I see a lack of "basic dignity" in the way Moore has been treated by DC. I certainly am not aware of anything happening between those two parties that compares to the horror story of what Marvel offered Jack in terms of returned artwork for rights.  Beyond the bad contract, I'm not clear on whether Moore has actually been mistreated and as I've expressed repeatedly, he bears some responsibility for what happened with the contract. As far as I can tell, we seem to get his perspective but not much from the others involved, and even the actual language of the Watchmen contract has never been made public (not that anyone involved has any obligation to do that—they may actually have an obligation not to make it public). In Moore's case, he just seems unable to get what he really wants: the rights to Watchmen.

When I read editorials like this "Ethical Rot" piece and see how upset the writer is at his realization that ruthless corporations dwell behind the happy facade of superhero comics, I always wonder how much of the anger expressed just stems from the harsh reality of the loss of innocence.

[S. Earl]

When I read editorials like this "Ethical Rot" piece and see how upset the writer is at his realization that ruthless corporations dwell behind the happy facade of superhero comics, I always wonder how much of the anger expressed just stems from the harsh reality of the loss of innocence.

Well said.

[miraclemet]

I appreciate David Brothers writing and perspective, but it is just more gnashing of teeth to me... Yes Corporations screw their employees, its happened before, it will happen again... congratulations, you don't buy Marvel or DC. You are better than me. You win the righteousness games.

As I said on twitter.. I cant wait for After Before Watchmen.... when people have to find something new to be offended about with Marvel & DC.

Has anyone ever written an analysis of what the comic industry would look like without the giant Marvel & DC corporations?

[S. Earl]

Was I not paying attention? When the hell did moral grandstanding become the thing to do? I quit following what was hip as soon as I got too old/fat for skinny jeans.

[Chester Alamo Costello]

Did anyone go to the Before Watchmen panel at C2E2? Anything of interest. I saw a line that was larger than a university graduation. People will be buying these books

[RickV]

I can't even begin to meet him half way on the Avengers part of the article.

I actually agree that linking Kirby to the Avengers movie is a stretch simply because the Kirby issue is much simpler but still not likely to happen. Kirby never wanted people to stop making the comics, he just wanted money and credit for the work he did and the pages back from Marvel.

It is kinda funny but I have recently dropped Marvel and don't plan on seeing Avengers but my reasons for those two things are not even linked together.


Also Jim part of the major piece of the 'deals' DC brings around to Moore about Watchmen is they all have clauses in them that are him signing off on DC being able to do more in relation to the product. Something which just adding that clause is enough for someone like Moore to throw away the deal at the outset.

[Julian Lytle]

David (Brothers) isn't naive now guys. He's not learning corporations are evil. Hell he used the "4080" in the post. And if you don't get that google it and get icier.

[thefreakytiki]

Was I not paying attention? When the hell did moral grandstanding become the thing to do? I quit following what was hip as soon as I got too old/fat for skinny jeans.

Simply brilliant!  Karma.


the Tiki

[S. Earl]

Roberson says "DC - NO MORE!"
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/04/19/chris-roberson-quits-dc-comics/

Apparently some of this is BWM related.

[VinceB]

Roberson says "DC - NO MORE!"
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/04/19/chris-roberson-quits-dc-comics/

Wow. What a loss. 

[David]

Wow. What a loss.

Wait a second...

So here's someone that's leaving DC and "won't be giving his ideas away", but instead of saying, "hey, good on you" he gets a "Wow.  What a loss."?

[VinceB]

So here's someone that's leaving DC and "won't be giving his ideas away", but instead of saying, "hey, good on you" he gets a "Wow.  What a loss."?

Nope. His departure amounts to nothing. The Big2 will continue the same practices with or without him. It's almost like all the whiners have woken from 50-year naps. This is business as usual at the Big2. Why are they noticing it now?

Marvel and DC can do whatever they damn well please with their properties. He was well aware of that fact when he signed up. He needed a movie and a series of prequels to be reminded of the way they do business? Please.

[S. Earl]

Nope. His departure amounts to nothing. The Big2 will continue the same practices with or without him. It's almost like all the whiners have woken from 50-year naps. This is business as usual at the Big2. Why are they noticing it now?

Because they want more hits for their blog?

Oh wait, we aren't talking about the Brothers' post. Never mind.

[JoeyN]

With all the stuff going on with creators saying stuff about DC/Marvel, I'm surprised none of the sites even talked about the conversation Capullo and Ottley had on twitter yesterday. Someone posted how they had read the Haunt TPB, and Capullo sent a message to Kirkman and McFarlane asking about getting Royalties. As Ottley and Capullo went back and forth discussing stuff, Capullo meant to send one thing as a DM, but sent it public. It said "if we weren't friends , I'd sue the guy". He then deleted it and said "last post supposed to be DM".     Josh from Ifanboy said he thinks they didn't know it went public.