Watchmen Prequels - It's Official

[RickV]

I think this has something that I hadn't seen brought up anywhere else.
http://everydayislikewednesday.blogspot.com/2012/02/six-thoughts-that-occurred-to-me-after.html

1. Where are the big DC players in this
2. Who really will end up suffering from it no matter how good/bad it is

[Jay Tomio - Part Deux]

Wood,

I ask because you are of the true people who understand Liefeld's place in the pantheon of awesome. What I've always found interesting is that I've always found Moore, even if slightly odd, to be unassailable when it comes to integrity of the bottom line. By all reports (as noted above) he has on several occasions has taken principle over dollars, and has on more than one occasion deferred payment to others. people say money isn't everything but that's because most in the industry aren't turning down large sums for not having to do anything (more), regularly.

Yet, Liefeld, someone who I also think speaks truth more than not, once came out and completely bagged Moore (do you remember that?).

Was there ever some clarification of that or was that Liefeld talking out of his ass, or has Moore ever spoke on that?

[Wood]

Wood,

I ask because you are of the true people who understand Liefeld's place in the pantheon of awesome. What I've always found interesting is that I've always found Moore, even if slightly odd, to be unassailable when it comes to integrity of the bottom line. By all reports (as noted above) he has on several occasions has taken principle over dollars, and has on more than one occasion deferred payment to others. people say money isn't everything but that's because most in the industry aren't turning down large sums for not having to do anything (more), regularly.

Yet, Liefeld, someone who I also think speaks truth more than not, once came out and completely bagged Moore (do you remember that?).

Was there ever some clarification of that or was that Liefeld talking out of his ass, or has Moore ever spoke on that?

Jay-Licious,

I remember there being beef between them, but I honestly have no recollection of the he said, he said.

[LA Rabbit]

I think this has something that I hadn't seen brought up anywhere else.
http://everydayislikewednesday.blogspot.com/2012/02/six-thoughts-that-occurred-to-me-after.html

Thanks for posting. Karma. It has my favorite commentary on this of anything I have read:

"Joe Kubert has the right to stop any comic book fan in the world on the street and demand a five dollar bill from them, and they should be legally required to give him that bill. He should also be allowed to stop any comics creator or editor, any industry professional, or anyone who works for any of the various entertainment companies running or profiting from old-school American superhero comics and just cold punch them in the face if he wants to."

[Jay Tomio - Part Deux]

Thanks for posting. Karma. It has my favorite commentary on this of anything I have read:

"Joe Kubert has the right to stop any comic book fan in the world on the street and demand a five dollar bill from them, and they should be legally required to give him that bill. He should also be allowed to stop any comics creator or editor, any industry professional, or anyone who works for any of the various entertainment companies running or profiting from old-school American superhero comics and just cold punch them in the face if he wants to."

It's so odd how different people view things. I find nothing logical about anything said, worst is the "why would creators want to alienate their base?" Comic book fans? Yeah, that's really going to happen.

Worst it seems like he's saying nobody should do this because they aren't better than Moore. Should we stop writing the Joker now? Should Rob Liefeld hold up Supreme?

The Kubert thing is funny, and the only thing I agree with, though I also have a soft spot for Wein who I think never gets enough credit for his accomplishments

For the record I have zero opinion on the actual Watchmen "debate" as it doesn't move me in any way. Just an observer.

[roadsign]

I think this has something that I hadn't seen brought up anywhere else.
http://everydayislikewednesday.blogspot.com/2012/02/six-thoughts-that-occurred-to-me-after.html

1. Where are the big DC players in this
2. Who really will end up suffering from it no matter how good/bad it is

While well-written, I honestly view things from the opposite side of the tracks. All these writers and artists are earning a living in an industry that has seen a major sales decline over the past several years. This project is generating TONS of discussion among comic fans and has gotten publicity in the major newspapers as well.

I have confidence that proven writers and artists can craft an excellent story, make themselves some good $, and continue on with their careers with another accomplishment under the belts. I guess I'm just confused why anyone who enjoys Watchmen and some of these writers would hate the thought of all of this. DC has the legal right to do this and is intent on doing it as well as possible. Is it really going to cause us comic fans pain if a universe that Alan Moore created (who apparently doesn't need any $) is expanded upon by some other talented creators now?

It feels like alot of people want it to fail, which befuddles me all that much more. I hope it's a grand success. This is comics we're talking about here,folks. Stories, art, and imagination. I hate to see pessimism and anger spewed at something that is supposed to be an escape and entertainment. Not one of these issues is even out and it's already being viewed as something that will hurt Watchmen's "legacy" and cheapen the creators involved. It's the comics media and fanboyishness at its' absolute worse. At least to me.

[steve bryant]

So you should just give in to your collaborators wishes all the time regardless of your own views and opinions, or even if it's something you feel is morally wrong ? If you are going to argue that then you need to accept the flip side of that argument which (if i am using your logic) is then Moore's collaborators are constantly blocking his wishes so they are also in the wrong.

Also how has Alan blocked the wishes of Dave Gibbons in any way ?

. Moore and Gibbons disagreed on there being a film of Watchmen, Alan says fine make the film just take my name off of it and give all my money to Dave and never contact me about this matter again. Dave Gibbons wanted the film and the film got made. Both Gibbons and DC broke their part of that agreement by DC using Dave Gibbons as a go between to constantly pester Moore about Watchmen movie related details, etc. but that is another matter.

. Both Dave and Alan were vehemently against prequels, sequels, or anything of that ilk as pertaining to Watchmen from the start. You can read quotes from Dave Gibbons as of 6 months ago which still show that point of view, and his "endorsement" of the prequels in that press release was hardly convincing. Gibbons came off as sounding like a hostage with a gun to his head to me, the fact he isn't participating in the project at all (not even drawing a variant cover or anything of the like) speaks volumes. BUT... even if a month ago Gibbons decided he was cool with prequels of Watchmen, now they are coming out so how has Alan Moore blocked the wishes of Dave Gibbons in any way.

on the topic of Captain Britain

. Alan Moore refused to work for Marvel in any capacity due to the Jack Kirby not getting his art back controversy in the 80's and denied Marvel the right to reprint them, he eventually let them reprint it in issue form in 1995 so Dave Thrope could get royalties for his issues (which he needed at the time). So due to a moral issue he refused but still eventually let them reprint so not as to block their wishes.

After I've written thousands of words  in this thread showing both sides of this complex issue, that's your takeaway?! That "you should just give in to your collaborators wishes all the time regardless of your own views and opinions?!"

Really?

Are you intentionally trying to miss my point that there are multiple angles to this?

My use of the word "block" was in reference to 1963 and Captain Britain and I suppose that I should have opted for "attempted block." What can I say, after literally spending hours on this board, I missed a spot.

Regarding Captain Britain, I've come out pretty consistently on this board on the side of Kirby. With that in mind, and not knowing all of the inner workings of Moore and Davis's partnership/friendship...Is it a moral high ground to make a stand for the treatment of a compete stranger at the expense of the well-being of a friend or partner? I don't know. In some cases, no. In other cases, absolutely. I don't have all the specifics of their relationship. All I know is that it was additional information.

Regarding Gibbons' about-face on Watchmen? I don't know. Maybe DC had his family at gunpoint. Maybe he doesn't care anymore. We don't know the details. We don't know how he broached the topic with Moore, either.

I offered up information. That's all.

Considering your history for snark, I find it ironic to see you jump all over someone for a turn of phrase.

[RickV]

While well-written, I honestly view things from the opposite side of the tracks. All these writers and artists are earning a living in an industry that has seen a major sales decline over the past several years. This project is generating TONS of discussion among comic fans and has gotten publicity in the major newspapers as well.

I have confidence that proven writers and artists can craft an excellent story, make themselves some good $, and continue on with their careers with another accomplishment under the belts. I guess I'm just confused why anyone who enjoys Watchmen and some of these writers would hate the thought of all of this. DC has the legal right to do this and is intent on doing it as well as possible. Is it really going to cause us comic fans pain if a universe that Alan Moore created (who apparently doesn't need any $) is expanded upon by some other talented creators now?

It feels like alot of people want it to fail, which befuddles me all that much more. I hope it's a grand success. This is comics we're talking about here,folks. Stories, art, and imagination. I hate to see pessimism and anger spewed at something that is supposed to be an escape and entertainment. Not one of these issues is even out and it's already being viewed as something that will hurt Watchmen's "legacy" and cheapen the creators involved. It's the comics media and fanboyishness at its' absolute worse. At least to me.

This viewpoint endlessly frustrates me. The its all team comics we gotta stick together rampant positive feelings is honestly sickening.

[steve bryant]

I apologize (both, in general, and to malpractice, in particular) for being snippy.

Here's what kind of set me off, though. When Steve Rude has a falling-out with two publishers, Marvel and DC, he's labeled as being difficult.

When Alan Moore has a falling out with multiple publishers (2000AD, Marvel, DC, Image, Awesome) and with multiple collaborators (Alan Davis, Rick Veitch, Steve Bissette, Dave Gibbons), he's labeled as being principled.

For what it's worth, I think both men are both difficult and principled.  

And talented as hell.  

[Wood]

I apologize (both, in general, and to malpractice, in particular) for being snippy.

Here's what kind of set me off, though. When Steve Rude has a falling-out with two publishers, Marvel and DC, he's labeled as being difficult.

When Alan Moore has a falling out with multiple publishers (2000AD, Marvel, DC, Image, Awesome) and with multiple collaborators (Alan Davis, Rick Veitch, Steve Bissette, Dave Gibbons), he's labeled as being principled.

For what it's worth, I think both men are both difficult and principled.  

And talented as hell.  

I agree with that, generally. I don't think Alan Moore is teflon in terms of how he comports himself. Not at all.

Where I would disagree with your comparison though is that Steve publicly lobbies for working at the Big 2, and often acts as though they're in the wrong for not falling over themselves to work with him, under his terms. And then cries foul when they don't concur.

Moore -- love him or hate him -- never lobbies to work with the places he's criticizing. I think there's inherently more principle in that. Rude would be drawing a Big 2 comic tomorrow if they hired him, so his sniping and criticisms feel less sincere. To me, at least.

[David]

Here's what kind of set me off, though. When Steve Rude has a falling-out with two publishers, Marvel and DC, he's labeled as being difficult.

When Alan Moore has a falling out with multiple publishers (2000AD, Marvel, DC, Image, Awesome) and with multiple collaborators (Alan Davis, Rick Veitch, Steve Bissette, Dave Gibbons), he's labeled as being principled.

I think the difference - in my eyes, anyway - is:

Moore keeps to himself until someone comes around asking questions that they already know the answer to but will make headlines regardless

and

Rude simply offers up whatever is on his mind.

[JimN]

I think this has something that I hadn't seen brought up anywhere else.
http://everydayislikewednesday.blogspot.com/2012/02/six-thoughts-that-occurred-to-me-after.html

1. Where are the big DC players in this
2. Who really will end up suffering from it no matter how good/bad it is

He lost me right from the start with his comment about the talent involved but by the time he implies that nobody working on this project that didn't put in their time before the original Watchmen was published looks like "a huge asshole", I found the whole blog/column beyond absurd. The idea that the "real victims' are the creators working on this project strikes me as equally ridiculous.

The level of judgment this blogger is throwing around just underlines how much Watchmen needs to be taken off the pedestal it's been placed upon. The very idea that it's some sort of unforgivable transgression to even work on a project like Before Watchmen should be considered laughable. I'm not suggesting people can't or shouldn't approve or disapprove of these creators' participation but that if disapproval extends into some sort of alienation and unwillingness to read a creator's work in the future, that would simply be childish.

I love how this guy claims "no one" wants these comics to exist. I'm betting there are plenty of people who want them to exist. DC is certainly banking on it and I have little doubt their gamble will pay off with some good sales on at least a few of these minis. I also love how he begins his blog rant with "The creative teams are almost shockingly unimpressive" and ends it with "What horrible waste of talent this is on DC's part, and what a horrible waste of goodwill this is on the involved creators' parts". What a horrible waste of shockingly unimpressive talent!  

[thefreakytiki]

Brian Michael Bendis chimes in (via Twitter) on the Watchmen prequels...

"r you a comic creator who would've taken the before watchmen gig in a 2nd? than drop the week long holier than thou shit, its douchabulous"


the Tiki

[David]

He lost me right from the start with his comment about the talent involved but by the time he implies that nobody working on this project that didn't put in their time before the original Watchmen was published looks like "a huge asshole", I found the whole blog/column beyond absurd. The idea that the "real victims' are the creators working on this project strikes me as equally ridiculous.

I found humor in it, but nothing more than that.  I've read better columns and articles on the matter this week.

The blogger kind of has a point about JMS, though.  Of everyone on board, he sticks out to the tune of one of these things is not like the other, one of these things doesn't belong...

[S. Earl]

Brian Michael Bendis chimes in (via Twitter) on the Watchmen prequels...

"r you a comic creator who would've taken the before watchmen gig in a 2nd? than drop the week long holier than thou shit, its douchabulous"


the Tiki

True words... although I question the use of Douchabulous. I also though dialog was BMB strong point...

Mark Waid has quite a few interesting tidbits on twitter as well, mostly in counter to JMS's tirades and the truth of what the DC deals with Alan Moore were actually like (considering Mark was on editorial at DC at the time and JMS just likes to talk because he can.)

[Jay Tomio - Part Deux]

Here's what kind of set me off, though. When Steve Rude has a falling-out with two publishers, Marvel and DC, he's labeled as being difficult.

When Alan Moore has a falling out with multiple publishers (2000AD, Marvel, DC, Image, Awesome) and with multiple collaborators (Alan Davis, Rick Veitch, Steve Bissette, Dave Gibbons), he's labeled as being principle

Seems to me that:

Alan Moore isn't looking for work, turns $ down and gives it to others who can't demand the money he could. If Alan Moore wants a job, he can have it, despite having to deal with him.

Steve Rude can't get regular work because nobody wants to deal with him.

[JimN]

Seems to me that:

Alan Moore isn't looking for work, turns $ down and gives it to others who can't demand the money he could. If Alan Moore wants a job, he can have it, despite having to deal with him.

Steve Rude can't get regular work because nobody wants to deal with him.

They'd deal with him if they felt he could deliver the $$$ Moore's name does.

Jim

[thefreakytiki]

In the world of comic sales, THIS is all that matters...

Comics' Retailers Thrilled About BEFORE WATCHMEN

Although most comic creators are questioning DC's decision to publish a Watchmen prequel, comic book retailers are thrilled.

"I'm excited!" said Mike Wellman, owner of The Comic Bug in Manhattan Beach, Calif. "Both as a reader and as a peddler of comic books, this can only be interesting — and profitable.

"Overall, these comics will come and go and make a lot of money," Wellman added.

"This is beneficial all the way," said Joe Field, president of the ComicsPRO retailer organization and owner of Flying Colors Comics & Other Cool Stuff in Concord, Calif. "Sure, we'll have the occasional heated discussion whether this is a pure money grab on the part of DC/Warner Brothers or whether it makes a lot of creative sense. But make no mistake — this is creating more excitement in comics, and that is a very good thing."

"People who only liked Watchmen now have something new to read, a reason to come, to see there's talent other than Alan Moore that can write good books," said John Robinson, co-owner of the nine-store chain, Graham Crackers Comics in Chicago, Ill. "It will financially help DC, the creators involved and retailers. Having an asset but never using it no longer makes it an asset. By investing some good money on these creative teams DC, creators, retailers and fans will all benefit from DC's finally doing something with these characters."

Some retailers have already started to plan how they will market the event, with some mentioning that they're counting on DC for the same type of co-op advertising commitment the publisher made for its New 52 initiative.

"Given the level of commitment they gave the New 52, and are continuing to give, I see no chance of them dropping the ball with this," said Ralph DiBernardo, owner of Jetpack Comics in Rochester, N.H.

One retailer even started advertising the yet-unscheduled series already, getting pre-orders from his customers as a result.

"I was so excited that I sent a newsletter about the series out to all of my customers first thing Wednesday morning and immediately started receiving requests to add some or all of the titles to subscription lists," said Charlie Harris, owner of Charlie's Comic Books in Tucson, Ariz. "The series overall is already outselling Wolverine, X-Men and Uncanny X-Men, and it hasn't really been solicited yet!"

The retailers we polled said they were hearing mixed reactions from customers about the decision to return to the Watchmen world, but all of them believed they would sell a lot of the comics nonetheless.


More here...  http://www.newsarama.com/comics/comic-book-retailers-react-to-before-watchmen-120203.html


the Tiki

[S. Earl]

"People who only liked Watchmen now have something new to read, a reason to come, to see there's talent other than Alan Moore that can write good books,"

I don't get how you can actually like JUST Watchmen if you haven't enjoyed any other comics. The tropes pulled apart in the book only have impact if you know the history behind them.

[thefreakytiki]

I don't get how you can actually like JUST Watchmen if you haven't enjoyed any other comics. The tropes pulled apart in the book only have impact if you know the history behind them.

I would assume the comment was not based on hardcore fans like us but rather the "civilian" graphic novel readers who only read Watchmen because of the "best of all time" hype/movie release/ omnipresent stock @ B&N and Borders over the last few years.

the Tiki