Homage vs. Ripping Off

[podcastrant]

I'm preparing myself for a beat down, but here goes...

I love American Barbarian and I am enjoying Scioli's new thing, Final Frontier.  At the time, I felt some of the criticism of AmBarb, especially in the CBR comments section, was misguided; I felt that AmBarb was a love letter from Scioli to the comics, Kirby's in this case, that he loved.  With Final Frontier, I'm not so sure.  It's like he said, "Oh, you think that AmBarb aped Kirby?  Well, take this!"

I mean, a 4-person group with super powers that get their abilities from a "cosmic" incident during a space flight.  There's a husband and wife, a person that now shoots fire and a, for all intents and purposes, Thing.  I know it's intentional "wink-wink-nudge-nudge" and all of that; I just wonder if it was coming from the Big 2, and not from "one-of-us" so to speak, would we, especially Vince, be screaming rip-off (second-rate Kirby imitation etc..).

When/Where does homage become ripping-off?

Look, I'm not saying Scioli is a rip-off artist; I'm a fan.  It's just when I read today's Final Frontier, I asked myself, "Would you let someone else get away with this?" and wondered what others thought.

Thanks

[RickV]

As long as you are making it work for your own story than everything is fair game to me. If you spin it just right you can take things in new looks and directions. Besides at this point I don't think there is a comic I am reading monthly that isn't taking elements from something. Creative people are sponges, they love the medium just as much or more as the people who just read it and all that stuff blends and re-contextualizes inside there heads and they let it out whether in film or comics.

There are very few new ideas left at this point but context and execution are everything.

[podcastrant]

I agree with everything in your post.

I was just wondering when it "crosses the line".  We all, at some times, for whatever reason, cry foul; and this is so overt, that I wondered what others thought.

[David]

If there was no Godland or American Barbarian before Final Frontier, I could see why some might consider it a "rip off" or "lacking creativity".  But when looking at Tom's body of work, there's no reason to think of it as anything other than a love letter.

[podcastrant]

David, I agree with you.  I guess my question is would we have the same reaction if it went like this:

cue Movie voice-over guy
"This summer, Marvel (or DC) brings you a brand-new adventure told in the classic vein, Brian Michael Bendis' "Final Frontier"."

[RedMoses]

David, I agree with you.  I guess my question is would we have the same reaction if it went like this:

cue Movie voice-over guy
"This summer, Marvel (or DC) brings you a brand-new adventure told in the classic vein, Brian Michael Bendis' "Final Frontier"."

Once again, then you have to take into account the creators.  If it is a creator who is known far and wide for their love of Kirby, and has dabbled in that before, then great. 

To your question, if I read that specific solicit:
1. First, I'd be reeeaally uneasy with Marvel suddenly paying "Homage" to Kirby, considering their legal history.
2. I'd wonder about Bendis' motives, as I don't believe he exudes "Kirby-fan".  I'm sure he would state that he's a Kirby fan, but his body of work doesn't signify that. It would seem bandwagon-y to me.

But I don't think that means that we can't enjoy a Kirby homage from the Big Two, as many of us enjoyed the new OMAC series quite a bit (granted I know this isn't the same as it's directly based on a Kirby work, but I believe that many would have a similar reaction to new creations in the Kirby style)

[PozrDu]

If there was no Godland or American Barbarian before Final Frontier, I could see why some might consider it a "rip off" or "lacking creativity".  But when looking at Tom's body of work, there's no reason to think of it as anything other than a love letter.

Isn't that almost worse, though?  It makes it look like all Scioli's got is Kirby lookalikes.
If people complain about OMAC, we know Keith Giffen could do it anyway he wanted
because we've other styles from him.

[Jon O]

Every artist has a style, and while Scioli has certainly extensively studied Kirby's work I don't look at an issue of Myth of 8 Opus and think, "Oh that's a Jack Kirby panel"  I think, "Wow.  Scioli is awesome."

[RickV]

I think to me the difference is in content vs. style.

Like I couldn't get into Kirby Genesis because it felt pandering and uninspired. Where as Scioli is using the style to tell NEW stories.

[David]

Isn't that almost worse, though? 

Not to me.

[JimN]

When/Where does homage become ripping-off?

That line is probably different for everybody. An homage is intended as a show of respect or a way of expressing high regard for something, whereas imitation is intended to copy or simulate. I think the closer an homage gets to the original, the closer it veers toward becoming an imitation of that original rather than something that honors it. However, determining when it crosses that line is really in the proverbial eye of the beholder.

[RobCVela]

I think that, while I can see where your coming from, with Scioli its not a case of ripping off. You have to remember that all characters have been done before in some way or the other. Scioli is just using the catalyst of the story as a homage to Kirby and doing what he does best.

[krelyan]

I forgot who said it so I'm going to paraphrase it, but it was a tongue-in-cheek quip that went along the lines that a homage was just a "well-done ripoff."  You've got times where its a pretty obvious and shameless swipe if they're claiming credit, but most of the time it seems to fall into a gray area where its really for the reader to determine which side of the fence it should be placed.

[RedMoses]

There's also the fact that often an Homage is done as a love letter to the original.  By creating this new work, the creator is trying to bring into the conversation the existing material. 

A rip-off typically borrows the style or substance of an existing work and means to exclude the original from the conversation.

[evaD]

Suppose Scioli was hired by Marvel to write and illustrate the Fantastic Four. Would you still have the same question? Was Alan Moore's Miracleman a rip off of Captain Marvel? I think Scioli has been very carefully crafting his versions of Kirby's greatest hits. I don't know if he would debate my interpretations, but to me Myth of 8 Opus is his New Gods story, American Barbarian is his Kammandi story, and although I haven't read it yet, it sounds like Final Frontier is his Fantastic Four story. I leave Godland out only because Scioli is not the sole creative driving force behind it. He is playing with Kirby concepts and doing an awesome job of it by taking these concepts in new and creative directions. I would say it's no more or less of a rip off than any issue of Fantastic Four since Kirby left the title. It's no more or less a rip off of FF than "Shazaam" Captain Marvel is a rip off of Superman, or the Authority is a rip off of the JLA, or Marine Man is a rip off of Aquaman. I could go on since the comic industry is filled with the kind of things you're talking about.

[bean6344]

Was early Byrne ripping off Kirby?
Was early Sienkiewicz  ripping off Adams?
Was early Sim ripping off Adams?
Was early/middle Sim Ripping off Sienkiewicz ?
Was early Hitch ripping off Davis?
was Williams ripping off Mazzuchelli?
The list goes on and on.....

I feel when the artist puts their own stamp on the work (like all of the names above and our beloved Tom Scioli) it is an homage.

Let's put it this way.   Eventually the hacks run out of gas and their hand is played.   They then move onto another venture.

Homage is a tough to pull off.   The true artists hang around and the hacks fade away.

Bean

[Brian G]

I think Kirby has become a genre. I think Tom Scioli does that genre masterfully.

[evaD]

Okay, so I just read it, and I'm even more convinced it's homage rather than rip off. While there are many similarities, they are so superficial. It's like Kirby whispered the genesis of the Fantastic Four into Scioli's ear and then Tom went off and read everything else Kirby had ever done before setting out to create Final Frontier.
He's bringing so much new to it.

[DonCardenas]

I guess I fall into the camp of it's an Homage if you are putting your own voice and sensibilities to the endeavor. A Rip-off if you are just "retelling" the story.

Scioli (and many of the others listed) have proven to be unique and talented creators. I think that is also crucial to the argument of Homage/Ripoff.

The use of archetypes is extremely prevalent in all artistic works. Since comics (as we know them) have only been around for less then 100 years, at times the archetypes can seem too fresh to be used.

Though that has certainly not stopped others from crafting excellent stories with them.

[Koete]

This would be ripping off.