Underwater Welder by Jeff Lemiere

[Gabe Infinity Watch]

As soon as DCBS updates with Underwater Welder I'm pre-ordering it for sure. The store sounds very interesting and I've been waiting for this to be finished for about a year now.

[David]

With age comes wisdom

Spoken like a true Allred and Quitely fan.

 

[evaD]

One could also apply the same defense when talking about Rob Liefeld, yes?

Yes, you could. If you are picking and choosing parts of my argument to use, but if you look at it as a whole, no. I can appreciate and enjoy Liefeld's work, but he is in way attempting to cultivate an art brut or outsider art style. His stuff looks more like some one who was self trained but is trying to look like the trained guys. Lemiere's stuff looks like someone who was self taught, is more concerned with telling his story than with making it look "right", and is okay with that.

I think there's definitely some deliberate thinking behind the simplicity and lack of change in his style but I get the feeling his art is defined by limitations more than choices. Of course, we all run up against the wall of our own limitations. I just wish I saw more effort in his art to push past them. You're right that he's had enough exposure to other professionals to encourage change if he wanted to change but he's also had praise heaped upon him from the start. Does the lack of change in his art indicate an intentionally rough, "primitive" approach or just complacency? Maybe it's neither and he doesn't want to change his art due to commercial pressures because he's been very successful. I sure don't have the answers. I wonder if he's ever been asked about this stuff in interviews.

You make an interesting point about editors. I have no doubt that Mr. Lemire receives feedback from his editors. I'd love to know the nature of those comments. I'll confess, if I was his editor I would have pushed hard to break him of that tendency to avoid 3/4 views and use so many "straight on" shots in his work. He could easily do that without abandoning a sort of "modern primitive" approach to the art, if that's what he wants, and in the end, I think his comics would be more interesting.

Ditto! It's nice to be able to differ about things like this without seeing a discussion degenerate into name-calling and bitter argument.

I see what you're saying about the difference between pushing past and staying with the style. I think our difference of opinion comes down to the fact that I enjoy it and see no reason for him to change it. Otherwise, I think I agree with what you're saying there. Every artist should always be looking to change and improve. He may just not be ready to move on yet. If he's still working exactly the same way in another ten years, I may be completely on your side. As for the 3/4 angle views, I think including more of them would make it look false. Whether he can or not isn't the issue. If you're creating something that looks like outsider art, you need to look at how they would go about doing it.

If he's just doing it that way because he doesn't know how to do it any differently, well, he's done pretty well for himself so far, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. By that, I mean he's not languishing in obscurity. He's got a job working at DC.

[JimN]

Yes, you could. If you are picking and choosing parts of my argument to use, but if you look at it as a whole, no. I can appreciate and enjoy Liefeld's work, but he is in way attempting to cultivate an art brut or outsider art style. His stuff looks more like some one who was self trained but is trying to look like the trained guys. Lemiere's stuff looks like someone who was self taught, is more concerned with telling his story than with making it look "right", and is okay with that.I see what you're saying about the difference between pushing past and staying with the style. I think our difference of opinion comes down to the fact that I enjoy it and see no reason for him to change it. Otherwise, I think I agree with what you're saying there. Every artist should always be looking to change and improve. He may just not be ready to move on yet. If he's still working exactly the same way in another ten years, I may be completely on your side. As for the 3/4 angle views, I think including more of them would make it look false. Whether he can or not isn't the issue. If you're creating something that looks like outsider art, you need to look at how they would go about doing it.

It sounds like you're saying he's trying to achieve the same combination of power and naiveté that can be found in the most interesting outsider art and if that's true, the Dubuffet comparison makes sense. Dubuffet attempted to do the same thing. I think the biggest difference lies in the sophistication of Dubuffet's efforts. As you said, it will be interesting to see what Lemire is doing 10 years down the road.

I disagree that using more 3/4 views would make the work look false. On the contrary, I think it would make it a lot more interesting. I might feel differently if he was pushing the front and profile views in more of a design sense, making use of the kind of "characteristic view" found in Egyptian hieroglyphics, but in every other sense, he takes a pretty traditional approach to his visual storytelling and I don't think limiting the point of view so much does anything to enhance the comics.

If he's just doing it that way because he doesn't know how to do it any differently, well, he's done pretty well for himself so far, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. By that, I mean he's not languishing in obscurity. He's got a job working at DC.

Well, that's what I find so fascinating and frustrating about him (and Matt Kindt). On one hand, they're to be applauded for doing the work in the first place, getting it out there and breaking down barriers. I never could have imagined DC/Vertigo publishing work like Sweet Tooth, The Nobody or Revolver. Let's face it, those books contain art that wouldn't have made it into a DC/Vertigo book by traditional avenues. In other words, if Lemire and Kindt were just showing their portfolios and submitting work to one of the big 2, they almost certainly would have received the same "work on anatomy, perspective and storytelling" advice so many other young hopefuls receive. Instead, the critical and commercial success of their indie endeavors opened a door for them. That's very impressive.

On the other hand, I can't help wondering if all the praise that's been heaped on Lemire has stunted his growth as a visual artist and left him with an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" outlook. It's possible but I should emphasize that I mean it when I use the word "wondering". I don't know him and I don't want to make unfair assumptions about his efforts. I'd just say that even if it ain't broke, it could use some fixing. I think he needs to expand the range of what he can do visually and until he does, I believe his comics will suffer for it. They don't seem likely to suffer commercially but I think they suffer artistically. The visual "palette" is just too limited.

[evaD]

It sounds like you're saying he's trying to achieve the same combination of power and naiveté that can be found in the most interesting outsider art and if that's true, the Dubuffet comparison makes sense. Dubuffet attempted to do the same thing. I think the biggest difference lies in the sophistication of Dubuffet's efforts. As you said, it will be interesting to see what Lemire is doing 10 years down the road.

I believe he's trying. I don't think he's reached the that level. But it seems like that's the intent. Obviously, I could be completely wrong, and he could be stunted but I hope that isn't the case.

I disagree that using more 3/4 views would make the work look false. On the contrary, I think it would make it a lot more interesting. I might feel differently if he was pushing the front and profile views in more of a design sense, making use of the kind of "characteristic view" found in Egyptian hieroglyphics, but in every other sense, he takes a pretty traditional approach to his visual storytelling and I don't think limiting the point of view so much does anything to enhance the comics.

Are you looking for something more polished and deliberate?

Well, that's what I find so fascinating and frustrating about him (and Matt Kindt). On one hand, they're to be applauded for doing the work in the first place, getting it out there and breaking down barriers. I never could have imagined DC/Vertigo publishing work like Sweet Tooth, The Nobody or Revolver. Let's face it, those books contain art that wouldn't have made it into a DC/Vertigo book by traditional avenues. In other words, if Lemire and Kindt were just showing their portfolios and submitting work to one of the big 2, they almost certainly would have received the same "work on anatomy, perspective and storytelling" advice so many other young hopefuls receive. Instead, the critical and commercial success of their indie endeavors opened a door for them. That's very impressive.

Both are breaking into the mainstream as writers, correct? I agree with you on this point. I can't imagine Lemiere doing the art on a Marvel or DC superhero book. Except maybe Wolverine. I think he'd do a good version of Wolverine. Lemiere and Kindt remind me of guys like Bendis and Judd Winnick. Indie writer/artists who were more valued by the big two for their writing than their art.

On the other hand, I can't help wondering if all the praise that's been heaped on Lemire has stunted his growth as a visual artist and left him with an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" outlook. It's possible but I should emphasize that I mean it when I use the word "wondering". I don't know him and I don't want to make unfair assumptions about his efforts. I'd just say that even if it ain't broke, it could use some fixing. I think he needs to expand the range of what he can do visually and until he does, I believe his comics will suffer for it. They don't seem likely to suffer commercially but I think they suffer artistically. The visual "palette" is just too limited.

I agree here also. No artist should stay stagnant. Everyone can improve and should always strive to better themselves.

[JimN]

Are you looking for something more polished and deliberate?

No, I think there's genuine power in a loose, expressive style so I don't think he needs to be more polished and deliberate. I just think his work would benefit greatly from a stronger underlying structure based on better drawing fundamentals and by breaking away from using those straight front and profile views so often. That kind of limited "camera view" can be effective but he uses it so much that personally, i think it's detrimental to his work.

Both are breaking into the mainstream as writers, correct? I agree with you on this point. I can't imagine Lemiere doing the art on a Marvel or DC superhero book. Except maybe Wolverine. I think he'd do a good version of Wolverine. Lemiere and Kindt remind me of guys like Bendis and Judd Winnick. Indie writer/artists who were more valued by the big two for their writing than their art.

Yes, but unlike those writer/artists, Lemire and Kindt have been able to write and draw for a big 2 imprint, Vertigo. I'm trying to think of another indie comics creator (with a style that's very different from what Marvel and DC publish) who has made that same transition and Peter Bagge is the only one that comes to mind.

I agree here also. No artist should stay stagnant. Everyone can improve and should always strive to better themselves.

Agreed! Even if that effort often makes you want pull your hair out or pound your head against a wall.

I really want to emphasize that I respect what Lemire has accomplished, even though I don't care much for his work. As I said earlier, what he's done is more or less unprecedented!

[jonny the homicidal drummer]

so who read it?

I DID 

Love Jeff Lemire
another great character piece
so glad to own this
read it in one sitting

It has some flaws but I will save that for later

Lemire is the best 

[rage5075]

I read it and really enjoyed it, had a couple of small issues with the OGN, but like I said, I enjoyed. And for the packaging nuts out there, the book was really neat, almost looks like a hardcover but its not.

I also am really enjoying this thread, its nice to have humane discussions on a message board with no one screaming but just discussing different viewpoints.

Have a great day everyone

[FASTorSLOW]

I read it and absolutely loved it. Thought it was his strongest work to date, and makes me wish he'd stop writing stuff for DC and concentrate on stuff like this instead (of course, I understand he needs to pay the bills and probably does have some genuine affection for the character, but still....)

Loved the ending and found the whole thing extremely affecting.

[barrow]

And for the packaging nuts out there, the book was really neat, almost looks like a hardcover but its not.

Yep, it's nice, but I was still disappointed.  I didn't read the solicit closely enough, I mean it's Underwater Welder, I couldn't pre-order it fast enough.  But I was expecting a hardcover for some reason though, so when I got my DCBS box I was surprised to find it in softcover.

[jdudley]

Honestly, might be my favorite Lemiere work to date (and this is coming from someone who has Essex County on his all-time top ten list)
And this is easily a top 3 ogn of the year for me, only thing I MAY have enjoyed more is Tale of Sand.

[Ryan 'gobo' C.]

Loved this! I wish Lemire could make a living doing only OGNs the rest of his life.

[evaD]

Just finished reading it. Beautiful!


Seems like he used a variety of different papers to do the book. The change from ink washes to line art was pretty cool, too.

[Lawrence]

I read this last night in one sitting like Anti_Drummer and I thought it was fantastic. I almost wish I hadn't of read it so fast but all of Lemires work seems to work that way.

I don't know if I would rank it over Essex but its close. I won't go into any spoilers since it just came out but I wanted to point to one artistic trick in the book. When Lemire shows the way the main character wakes up from passing out and the character in front of him goes from, scratchy lines, to loose pencils, to inked lines, I thought that was a fantastic yet simple way to show that. Those three panels really struck me as impressive.

[evaD]

I read this last night in one sitting like Anti_Drummer and I thought it was fantastic. I almost wish I hadn't of read it so fast but all of Lemires work seems to work that way.

I don't know if I would rank it over Essex but its close. I won't go into any spoilers since it just came out but I wanted to point to one artistic trick in the book. When Lemire shows the way the main character wakes up from passing out and the character in front of him goes from, scratchy lines, to loose pencils, to inked lines, I thought that was a fantastic yet simple way to show that. Those three panels really struck me as impressive.

I liked that, too. Looked like he might have been drawing with his non-dominant hand.

[Dean S.]

I read it in one sitting and loved it.  I don't think it's as good and layered as Essex County because it really just has that one moment with the watch where you go, "Ohhhhh....THAT'S why the watch is important!" and that's kinda the punchline for the whole book whereas Essex has about 3-4 moments like that.

But....very good.  I also loved seeing all those little dates in the corners of pages and thinking, "Holy hell....he's been working on this for years!"

[jonny the homicidal drummer]

I read it in one sitting and loved it.  I don't think it's as good and layered as Essex County because it really just has that one moment with the watch where you go, "Ohhhhh....THAT'S why the watch is important!" and that's kinda the punchline for the whole book whereas Essex has about 3-4 moments like that.

But....very good.  I also loved seeing all those little dates in the corners of pages and thinking, "Holy hell....he's been working on this for years!"

Agreed

Great read but Essex county is a masterpiece for all time
This was a great story that may have been effected by the 4 years and multiple projects during its creation

Still a great read
Lemire is my favorite writer Now

[JR]

loved it.
early favorite for my 11 o'closcar OGN.

[jdudley]

loved it.
early favorite for my 11 o'closcar OGN.

Certainly on my short list too. Tale of Sand might just barely edge it out for me but both stories really affected me.

Both stories had such unique tones and both spoke loudly largely through the art itself. That Tale of Sand, in particular, managed such a result with so few words (and with SUCH surrealism) made it a singular achievement that's really just impossible to ignore come 11 Ocloscars time... But this book is really staying with me too and I'm liking it more and more as I think about it... Time will tell but in the meantime? Easily a top 3 ogn of the year if not the past 5 years.

[Alec B.]

Reviewed:

"Though, problems aside, “The Underwater Welder” makes plenty of sense within Jeff Lemire’s greater career, yet neither does it play all of the old cards. The work showcases some sense of growth for the artist, and for the reader, offers a nice, sound piece about fatherhood and confrontation. A quick read, certainly, and while not challenging by any sense of the word, ‘Welder’ still remains a well crafted piece which clearly possesses a solid core."

http://tricycleoffense.com/2012/08/08/worth-a-read-the-underwater-welder-by-jeff-lemire/