More SGM: "Why Are We Slower?"

[Jon O]

Weren't they doing something like that on Spider-man for a while?

And it was awesome.

[Dean S.]

And it was awesome.

I'd love them to examine why the rotating teams on Spider-Man worked so well and see what they could apply to other families of comics.  Like, could you apply the lessons of Spider-Man during that time to making the X-Men and Avengers comics feel more unified?

I wonder if the lesson on Spidey was (a) good editor and (b) a bunch of talented, but not "superstar" writers who didn't mind taking creative direction from the good editor.  The model on X-books and Avengers books seems to be more "superstar writers running in their own separate directions with editors unable or unwilling to reign them in at all". 

[PozrDu]

I'd love them to examine why the rotating teams on Spider-Man worked so well and see what they could apply to other families of comics.  Like, could you apply the lessons of Spider-Man during that time to making the X-Men and Avengers comics feel more unified?

Who's the best editor out there?
At times I feel that the "Architects" would be better as editors rather than as writers.
Is this Marvel's idea as well, since they laid off editorial staff?

[Dean S.]

Who's the best editor out there?
At times I feel that the "Architects" would be better as editors rather than a writers.
Is this Marvel's idea as well, since they laid off editorial staff?

I think Stephen Wacker is pretty good.  The books in his part of Marvel as always quality and he manages to juggle writers and artists pretty well.  Plus, he seems to be able to pluck all sorts of really nice artists for his books both in terms of the regular art team and the guest artists.  He seems to break in a lot of new artists too.

I used to think Mike Marts did pretty well on the Bat-books, but I don't read enough of the Bat-books anymore to say if that's true or not.

[ala4]

IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF XBOX!!!lol

[the other mike]

SGM raises a lot of valid points. definitely all those are true to some extent or another.

i want to add that another reason (at least for me), is the lack of practical/real world training for modern artists. its one thing to know perspective, anatomy etc. and its quite another to know how best to put together a page as efficiently as possible.

for example: one of the main reasons i pencil so damn tight is that i personally don't know how much is "enough" for the inker. i preferred to err on the side of caution and lay down every detail and leave as little to chance as possible. i slave over a page and when i ultimately handed them to my inker, first thing he does is erase them (with a kneaded eraser)!

or better/easier ways to do perspective. or knowing optimum camera angles. or an optimum workflow for maximum efficiency.

...you know, various and sundry stuff like that, that veteran comic professionals pick-up along the way and would be invaluable to the young pro.

a GREAT example of what i mean is "wally wood's 22 panels that work". totally a life-saver.


-mike   

[evaD]

SGM raises a lot of valid points. definitely all those are true to some extent or another.

i want to add that another reason (at least for me), is the lack of practical/real world training for modern artists. its one thing to know perspective, anatomy etc. and its quite another to know how best to put together a page as efficiently as possible.

for example: one of the main reasons i pencil so damn tight is that i personally don't know how much is "enough" for the inker. i preferred to err on the side of caution and lay down every detail and leave as little to chance as possible. i slave over a page and when i ultimately handed them to my inker, first thing he does is erase them (with a kneaded eraser)!

or better/easier ways to do perspective. or knowing optimum camera angles. or an optimum workflow for maximum efficiency.

...you know, various and sundry stuff like that, that veteran comic professionals pick-up along the way and would be invaluable to the young pro.

a GREAT example of what i mean is "wally wood's 22 panels that work". totally a life-saver.


-mike   

Many of the things you mention should only be a problem for people just starting out. The people he is addressing are the folks who have figured out much of what you are talking about.

[DonCardenas]

Many of the things you mention should only be a problem for people just starting out. The people he is addressing are the folks who have figured out much of what you are talking about.

You would think so, but a lot of bigger names tend to fall into the trap of excessive detail = storytelling. I think every artist should not only use/study WW's 22 panels, but also REDRAW their own copy. You will then be able to utilize it more because not only do you now see it in your own style, it will start to become a part of your thinking/planning process. Sorry if that is off-topic.

I have no problem only getting a few issues of Art Adams / Hitch / etc... a year as long as the things come out when they are said to be. I have dropped a LOT of stuff due to this type of behavior. That's not to say I won't check it out when it's collected, but my dollars need to be budgeted. So if you are not going to deliver as promised, I can't guarantee I will have that money for your project when it's done.

[JimN]

You would think so, but a lot of bigger names tend to fall into the trap of excessive detail = storytelling. I think every artist should not only use/study WW's 22 panels, but also REDRAW their own copy. You will then be able to utilize it more because not only do you now see it in your own style, it will start to become a part of your thinking/planning process. Sorry if that is off-topic.

Off topic or not, it's great advice.

[aelfinn]

a GREAT example of what i mean is "wally wood's 22 panels that work". totally a life-saver.


-mike   

karma for this mike, somehow i was completely ignorant of this.  I'll be taking DonCardenas advice w/this tonight and redrawing the 22 panels and posting it above my drawing table tonight!! 

thanks for this guys

[evaD]

You would think so, but a lot of bigger names tend to fall into the trap of excessive detail = storytelling. I think every artist should not only use/study WW's 22 panels, but also REDRAW their own copy. You will then be able to utilize it more because not only do you now see it in your own style, it will start to become a part of your thinking/planning process. Sorry if that is off-topic.

Not off topic at all. I just think with tons of experience you get a sense of "better/easier ways to do perspective. or knowing optimum camera angles. or an optimum workflow for maximum efficiency." Mike even refers to these things being valuable tips to a young pro. Certainly everyone should be working to improve and looking at things like Wally Wood's panels and drawing them over are great ideas for anyone. You are absolutely right in what you're saying there. I think a pro who knows what he's doing and why will have figured a lot of that out through trial and error. Assuming they are trying to improve. The ones who haven't, well, I guess they haven't really improved beyond the beginner level.

[Wormworth]

Every artist is different and does the work at a different pace. The ones who are quick and reliable have a career even if they aren't the biggest fan favorites.

The reason for books being late when the artist can't keep up with a schedule is the artist's fault - for agreeing to said schedule, but the alternative for the artist could be no work - and can you blame an artist for trying to make the best job they can and not just sending something half-assed to the publisher?

To a large extent, the blame for late books goes to the editors - if attaching "big name" artist to a monthly title with big press follows with the book being late and numerous fill-in artists, I'd say something is done seriously wrong in the publishing house. Writers like Bendis have scripts written for months to come - why not make a habit of that and have a good buffer of scripts for every series, for instance a year - that way two artists could have a year to do six issues each.

Maybe that wouldn't help with the artists who really do have a problem with poor control of time but I'm sure many artists would benefit from that enormously - if that would be financially viable for them.

Living across the sea from US, it's easy to I agree with the statement that the con circus and commission jobs shouldn't take away time from the main thing - making comics!

[Jarrett Towe]

I think artists are slower than their predecessors for a few real reasons:
1) their forefathers were beasts when it came to turning out art
2) their work environments were 100% drawing (or whatever their specialty was). Technology has increased the speed that information travels between us, but it hasn't really sped up that which must be transferred from our brain to an actual physical existence. In short, tech has made it easier to have endless revisions requested.
3) they were used to working harder than many of us have to (including myself)

[Dean S.]

I'm only kinda kidding when I say this, but I wish artists had to pass a test on WW's 22 panels before being allowed to draw a comic that would be in the front half of Previews.  Kinda like getting a drivers license or something.

Every once in awhile, I'm reviewing a comic and I'll go to talk about the art.  I know I loved it, but can't see precisely in the story made the art so special....which makes it kinda hard to say anything useful about.  Then I realize that 90% of the panels are WW panels and it all makes sense: It's just an example of an artist doing what works rather than doing what they think might be visually impressive and eye-catching.

[evaD]

I'm only kinda kidding when I say this, but I wish artists had to pass a test on WW's 22 panels before being allowed to draw a comic that would be in the front half of Previews.  Kinda like getting a drivers license or something.

Every once in awhile, I'm reviewing a comic and I'll go to talk about the art.  I know I loved it, but can't see precisely in the story made the art so special....which makes it kinda hard to say anything useful about.  Then I realize that 90% of the panels are WW panels and it all makes sense: It's just an example of an artist doing what works rather than doing what they think might be visually impressive and eye-catching.

You need to beat the part of you that isn't kidding into submission.  Regulating any kinda artistic expression defeats the purpose of art. And you know in a capitalistic system, if people aren't enjoying it and there's no money to be made, an artist will eventually be forced to move on to something else or change what they are doing.

[Dean S.]

You need to beat the part of you that isn't kidding into submission.  Regulating any kinda artistic expression defeats the purpose of art. And you know in a capitalistic system, if people aren't enjoying it and there's no money to be made, an artist will eventually be forced to move on to something else or change what they are doing.

Oh....I know that.    I still think it would be neat to have a little more insight with unknown artist as to what their competence level is before I spend my money.  Not trying to squelch any artistic expression, but I might be disinclined to pre-order a comic by an unknown artist if I knew they had never heard of the 22 panels.