Kickstarter, Bendis and Cebulski

[JimN]

Didn't Bendis once say that comics want to be $3.99?

Well, Kickstarter campaigns want to earn $100,000.

 

[Chris]

Here's what I posted over at iFanboy:



When you print in the volume and at the crap quality that Marvel does, I’m sure the unit cost is pretty low.

If you print in a small qty and with a paper & print quality that doesn’t make you want to barf, printing costs can be very expensive.

I’ve called plenty of printers in my almost 20 years as a designer and Art Director. CB’s response was snarky, uninformed and lazy.

[Farrell]

So is it better to think of Kickstarter as a means to START your creative endeavor, as opposed to providing you a year's living at it? Or is the creator allowed to determined the definition?

Any creator (or would be creator) is allowed to define Kickstarter however they want, but I think most are better served by following model A above.  It's a great means for finding a guaranteed audience for your eventual finished product, while also giving you the opportunity to promote and describe it in a way that listing it in a catalog doesn't.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but it generally seems to me that Kickstarter campaigns that depend on attracting numerous supporters at modest buy-in amounts are much more likely to succeed than those that ask for a high minimum to even get off the ground.  

[JimN]

As for Kickstartering, I'm about to get mine on and I'm as nervous as all get-out. I want to do it in a manner people approve of.  It's scary to ask for money, and I'm also finding it impossible not to want as much as I can possibly contain. I don't want to be greedy, but gosh how I would love to be able to produce the goods while not under the pressure of working 8 hrs a day.  However, I can abandon that little dream because I know most of us reg'lar folk just have to DO it that way.  If my stuff is good, it'll make me money. If not, it'll fade away and I go back to the 8 hr work model.

So is it better to think of Kickstarter as a means to START your creative endeavor, as opposed to providing you a year's living at it? Or is the creator allowed to determined the definition?

I think creators should set whatever parameters they want, whether it's financing printing, shipping, etc. or financing a whole project from start to finish. In the end, regardless of what the creator requests, the public will decide if they want to fund the project or not. That's the beauty of the Kickstarter model. People ask and they either receive or they don't...

I see no harm in trying to finance the time it takes to produce a project as well as printing and shipping of the project itself. There's certainly more risk involved in that approach because the creator is asking people to wait longer for the product and he obviously needs more contributions to make it happen. However, if the campaign is successful, the work is financed and the ability to work on it full time makes it happen faster. It might also lead to a better end result since it's easier to produce good work when focused and sharp than it is when exhausted after an 8 hour work day, a commute, etc.

Good luck with your project!

[New Mutant]

I think creators should set whatever parameters they want, whether it's financing printing, shipping, etc. or financing a whole project from start to finish. In the end, regardless of what the creator requests, the public will decide if they want to fund the project or not. That's the beauty of the Kickstarter model. People ask and they either receive or they don't...

I see no harm in trying to finance the time it takes to produce a project as well as printing and shipping of the project itself. There's certainly more risk involved in that approach because the creator is asking people to wait longer for the product and he obviously needs more contributions to make it happen. However, if the campaign is successful, the work is financed and the ability to work on it full time makes it happen faster. It might also lead to a better end result since it's easier to produce good work when focused and sharp than it is when exhausted after an 8 hour work day, a commute, etc.

Good luck with your project!

Thanks Jim. Sorry to bogart the thread, but anything that says "KICKSTARTER" in it's title these days is liable to attract me faster than adamantium onto Logan's bones.      That was an AWFUL analogy. 

[Kenney]

I don't really care either way.  When it comes to Kickstarter, all I want to know is what am I being promised in return for my pledge, and how likely is it that the creator is going to come through on what was promised.

For the record, I agree with you 100%. I meant to put the "greedy" in my post in italics or something. Things get a little ugly when men start to worry about what's going on in other men's pockets. Campaigns should ask what they want, and if the public deems that cost worth it, the campaign gets supported. Simple as that.

Not that CB isn't justified for having his own reasons for not supporting campaigns for the reason he started. It's no different than not wanting to over pay for champagne at a restaurant, or mechanic work at the dealership.

[Wood]

Jim can be snarky, and I might argue that penning a column on iFanboy runs counter to his contention that he just wants to read comics. He may not want to write or draw them, but he certainly aspires to be recognized as a voice in the industry and have at least a minor role as an industry journalist.

That said, CB and Bendis should be ashamed of themselves.

[evaD]

Kickstarter issue aside, it seems like a three of them were being jerks. I think the clown writing the article set the tone for that conversation and got what he was asking for with his "aaall ears" comment. CB and Bendis quickly sank to his level.
As for Kickstarter, who cares what two higher up Marvel guys have to say about it. I have no idea what their salaries are, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say they have no room to condemn anyone else for trying to make as much money as possible.

[Scotchlander]

Here's what I posted over at iFanboy:



When you print in the volume and at the crap quality that Marvel does, I’m sure the unit cost is pretty low.

If you print in a small qty and with a paper & print quality that doesn’t make you want to barf, printing costs can be very expensive.

I’ve called plenty of printers in my almost 20 years as a designer and Art Director. CB’s response was snarky, uninformed and lazy.

Chris's profile photo is badass so I agree with him.

[Lawrence]

Jim can be snarky, and I might argue that penning a column on iFanboy runs counter to his contention that he just wants to read comics. He may not want to write or draw them, but he certainly aspires to be recognized as a voice in the industry and have at least a minor role as an industry journalist.

That said, CB and Bendis should be ashamed of themselves.

There was definitely some snark coming from Jim but I wonder if CB and Bendis had any idea who Jim was. While that doesn't change anything about how they acted I wonder if they were surprised to see or hear that it was on the front page of Ifanboy? I assume if they they knew that would happen they might have acted differently.

[Former Poet Laureate]

Printing is only one factor in a Kickstarter campaign. It's earned income, so taxes have to accounted for. And Kickstarter and Amazon's percentages have to be factored in, too. And shipping the items from the printer to the person who launched the campaign. And shipping incentives out. And buying shipping supplies. And the time it takes to stuff envelopes, etc.

Yup. This is exactly why I am very reluctant to fund anything on Kickstarter - I have no idea of the business acumen of the person I am lending to. Do they know how to properly account for time? Can they estimate a job? Are they set up to minimize taxes, or are they some yahoo who just realized they owe 50% of the money they raised to the feds and the state, and they have no hope of delivering what they have promised? What kind of due diligence does Kickstarter itself do on a project? Not much, I bet...

And don't even google "Kickstarter scams". It will depress the hell out of you.

[Jeppe]

What a couple of assholes. I guess only people employed by corporate entities deserve an actual salary 

I have no idea what is meant by the sentence "where creators are being greedy." Maybe it's because I'm one of those confused people who believe that the market forces of supply and demand can actually work quite well, especially in a setting like Kickstarter where projects are only funded if they manage to offer the right product for the right price to enough people.

[Wood]

Yup. This is exactly why I am very reluctant to fund anything on Kickstarter - I have no idea of the business acumen of the person I am lending to. Do they know how to properly account for time? Can they estimate a job? Are they set up to minimize taxes, or are they some yahoo who just realized they owe 50% of the money they raised to the feds and the state, and they have no hope of delivering what they have promised? What kind of due diligence does Kickstarter itself do on a project? Not much, I bet...

And don't even google "Kickstarter scams". It will depress the hell out of you.

I'm a big believer in Caveat Emptor -- so good on you for asking questions.

That said, it's no more my concern whether a creator does his tax planning right than it is wondering if Image is paying its printing bills.  I pay for a finished product and then evaluate whether the transaction was a good one on whether or not I receive the finished product.

As to your point about vetting, I've said from Day One (including when I profiled Kickstarter back in the day on iFanboy) that crowdsourcing is only as good as the project creators.  If the creators don't stand by their promises, it will greatly reduce the opportunity for future funding of others' works.

[steve bryant]

I'm a big believer in Caveat Emptor -- so good on you for asking questions.

That said, it's no more my concern whether a creator does his tax planning right than it is wondering if Image is paying its printing bills.  I pay for a finished product and then evaluate whether the transaction was a good one on whether or not I receive the finished product.

As to your point about vetting, I've said from Day One (including when I profiled Kickstarter back in the day on iFanboy) that crowdsourcing is only as good as the project creators.  If the creators don't stand by their promises, it will greatly reduce the opportunity for future funding of others' works.

Exactly. It's nothing you, the consumer, needs to be concerned with. Cost of printing, or what someone is targeting as a goal doesn't matter. All that should matter is if the supporters feel that the reward is worth the money pledged.

My thoughts regarding taxes and the myriad other factors had nothing to do with what the supporters should or shouldn't consider, but rather was in response to Bendis and CB conversing as though printing was the only factor in determining the goal of a Kickstarter campaign .

[Farrell]

And don't even google "Kickstarter scams". It will depress the hell out of you.

Mostly you'll find a hundred links to blog posts and articles about the "Mythic" scam, a scam more transparent than those Nigerian prince emails.  I mean, really, "graphics that should be right up there with Skyrim"?  Who talks like that?  Not game designers, that's for sure.  
 
I haven't seen any evidence that there is a significant percentage of outright scammers on Kickstarter, not yet.  The percentage of those who may not follow through on what they promised in the time frame they say is much higher, though, so caution is certainly warranted.

[Kenney]

Exactly. It's nothing you, the consumer, needs to be concerned with. Cost of printing, or what someone is targeting as a goal doesn't matter. All that should matter is if the supporters feel that the reward is worth the money pledged.

This.

[Wood]

Mostly you'll find a hundred links to blog posts and articles about the "Mythic" scam, a scam more transparent than those Nigerian prince emails.  I mean, really, "graphics that should be right up there with Skyrim"?  Who talks like that?  Not game designers, that's for sure.  
 
I haven't seen any evidence that there is a significant percentage of outright scammers on Kickstarter, not yet.  The percentage of those who may not follow through on what they promised in the time frame they say is much higher, though, so caution is certainly warranted.

Fraud is going to exist in any type of commerce, particularly one where there's an arms length approach to the platform.  I agree with Farrell on all that he says here.  I've backed quite a few Kickstarter campaigns, and while a few have had...annoying delays...nothing was close to being a scam. At least not yet.

Will there be scams? ABSOLUTELY. EBay deals with them, too.

But there will be mechanisms put into place to help solve that. One thing I won't do is back someone that I can't check out otherwise. If I've never heard of someone, can't find them on Google, and don't have the vetting of other people who might know them, I'm not backing the deal.

[S. Earl]

FITTING NEWS UPDATE
http://www.theonion.com/video/internet-scam-alert-most-kickstarter-projects-just,28655/

[Former Poet Laureate]

Exactly. It's nothing you, the consumer, needs to be concerned with. Cost of printing, or what someone is targeting as a goal doesn't matter. All that should matter is if the supporters feel that the reward is worth the money pledged.

What? You are giving people your money to produce something for you. You should be concerned about every facet of production, because, like it or not, you are paying for it, albeit with limited exposure, whether in money (your pledge) or your time (waiting for a product that may or may actually be delivered).

This is not a finished product you are buying off the shelf, whose production is immaterial to you - it is a product they are asking you to help them produce, which, without your help, would not exist in the first place. I don't know - I guess if I personally knew the creator, it wouldn't have a problem with it, but it seems like Kickstarter wants me to assume the role of an investor, where I put money up front with the promise of a return, but have the rights of a consumer, which is none. Again, this is my perception and why I don't do it - your mileage may vary.

I don't mean to imply that Kickstarter is a bunch of scam artists, or crowdsourcing is a likely vehicle for outright fraud, or you are likely to lose your shirt investing in Kickstarter projects, or you stand to even lose much of anything with small fry comic publishing deals. But take a look at this: http://www.dailydot.com/business/kickstarter-failures/.  Kickstarter manipulates their robot meta tags to hide failed projects from showing up on search engines, despite the fact that more than half of Kickstarter projects fail to meet their goals.  They also get their 5% whether or not a product is ever delivered. Caveat Emptor indeed.

[JimN]

What? You are giving people your money to produce something for you. You should be concerned about every facet of production, because, like it or not, you are paying for it, albeit with limited exposure, whether in money (your pledge) or your time (waiting for a product that may or may actually be delivered).

You wouldn't really be paying for it with your time. You'd simply be waiting for your purchase. Other than a typically longer duration, it's the equivalent of waiting for an item ordered online (and often sight unseen) to be shipped to you. It's not as if, by sending a Kickstarter campaign money, you'd be making a personal investment of your time and effort into the project.

Jim