11 O'Clock Comics Episode 7

[Jay Tomio]

Thanks again for the tunage - love the episode!

Vince I’m with you here Morrison is what the game should always be about - but Moore is constantly a step ahead of the game and offers us glimpses every now and then.

Rings made of pieces of the Cosmic Cube? That may have killed even thoughts of getting the trade 

Regarding TMNT. As a collectible it’s probably the key book of the 1980’s and it’s not just indie penetration, out side of characters like Batman, Superman, and Spiderman you’d be hard pressed to find a character with the market penetration TMNT had: toys , movies, cartoons, comics, video games (and popular one - not just on). I’m not quite sure how much the single comic itself effected the market in general - there were only 3,000 printed in the first print run with a tough, tough, black cover(why it’s costly) and it’s very much a hindsight collectible resulting more from the cartoon IMHO. Note the original art to the first issue sold last year for over a quarter of a million dollars. Not many books would command that kind of a price.

Chuck Dixon can have a home at the new VALIANT, baby! Chuck Dixon on a new Bloodshot? Sweetness.

Let me tell you what happens when you lose editorial direction. Pre-Unity VALIANT becomes a fucking video game on paper. Did anybody see the quality of the early Image titles? All that crazy unbridled talent  was great, Brigade and Youngblood were fucking classics! Lets get this straight MARVEL and DC is art - but it’s commercial art, if they want to go out on and do their own thing . If you are a creative force than go out and be Todd McFarlane and succeed , but the fact of that matter is a lot of these people we crown  cannot carry their own product which is why they don’t. You guys bring up Fraction, I love Fraction, I think he’s a great talent, and the type of talent MARVEL needs but this guy needs MARVEL more than the reverse - lets not get it twisted. MARVEL or DC didn't make it that way - consumers did.  Very few current creators are bigger than the game: Moore, Mignolia, McFarlane, Miller, Lee, Ross, Chris Ware, Neil Gaiman - I’m not speaking on talent or how much I like them - but these guys don’t need anybody. You have to do something before you get that right - not just say you have a lot of batshit ideas for  properties you had no hand in building.

We hear a lot of the complaints about the Shooters years at MARVEL and his strong hand as editors - however, some of the best work was done under his watch. X-Men took off, Miller's daredevil etc. Who was it  that pumped in all that media tie in money like G.I.JOE and Transformers that were actually good reads? That was Shooter. Basically what I'm saying is creators bitching is never new in any medium, but just because it's occurring doesn't always mean anything. When they aren't bitching you get Cyberforce or Youngblood: Strike File.

As a reader I'm interested in the bottom line. Creators get paid fair compensation so there is no moral issue. Give me good stories, whether you're work place is or isn't the most ideal utopia doesn't mean much to me - how many can claim to have such a thing?

[Matt Kramer]

Jenna Jameson's Shadow Hunter is indeed good stuff.  I think Vince and I are the only ones who read Virgin titles.  Christina Z is a decent writer and something like Shadow Hunter really shows off her talent.

[VinceB]

I was wondering the same thing...I didn't know Sal and Vince had bad mojo.

No bad mojo at all. I like the guy.

[Papercut]

So. 

Vince can fully embrace Hindu god cloning, but the one time it's done to a Norse god, the idea get's donkey punched in the nuts.....


 


 

I'll have to check that Virgin series out.

[Jay Tomio]

Line of the episode:

As it should be - Vince 

[Papercut]

First of all, was that KY Comic Guy who did the first voice mail? I'm sitting next to someone on my commute into the city today and start hearing the duck call and I start LOSING MY SHIT. I mean I was guffawing and the gentlemen next to me was clearly bothered by that fact. HILARIOUS! I mean that was PURE COMIC GENIUS.

Agreed. Nice job, Mike!

 

[VinceB]

So. 
Vince can fully embrace Hindu god cloning, but the one time it's done to a Norse god, the idea get's donkey punched in the nuts.....

You and your instant recall. I will not be shackled by LOGIC! 

(Nice. Hand the gun to Mr. Price and load it, whydoncha?)

[Papercut]

Heh.  Just  to get an old fashion Dave/Vince  that we all can't help but watch...sort of like midget porn. 

[Chris]

I'm going to try and be a bit clearer about my thoughts on editors.

All books need editors. Whether it's a creator who is editing their own work, or a mega event book at DC or Marvel. Mainstream books that tie a tremendous amount of continuity into overlapping stories even more so.

My problem is that editors are starting to be marketed and presented as part of the creative teams. When people start buying a book because a "Star" editor is working on it we've gone down a dark road. I love pretty much every book that Will Dennis is the editor on, but not because he's the editor.

The other big difference between most editors of today and in years past is that many editors today have never worked as writers or artists in comics before ascending to the editors position.

[David]

My problem is that editors are starting to be marketed and presented as part of the creative teams. When people start buying a book because a "Star" editor is working on it we've gone down a dark road. I love pretty much every book that Will Dennis, but not because he's the editor.

Have people started doing that?

Thanks to Stan, the people behind the people that make the comics have been known.  Stan, Roy Thomas, Julie Schwartz, these guys have been drawn in the comics and have taken a part in those stories, imaginary and otherwise.

It's only when a book reads like shit, the story doesn't make sense, the lettering is awful, the colors are crap, that we look to see who had a hand in its creation.  If everything is smooth, we compliment the writer and artist, but the editor gets no love.  Should it be that way?  Who's to say.  But since I've been reading comics, knowing who does what has always held my interest.  But that's because I wanted a career in the industry.

[Wood]

I'm going to try and be a bit clearer about my thoughts on editors.

All books need editors. Whether it's a creator who is editing their own work, or a mega event book at DC or Marvel. Mainstream books that tie a tremendous amount of continuity into overlapping stories even more so.

My problem is that editors are starting to be marketed and presented as part of the creative teams. When people start buying a book because a "Star" editor is working on it we've gone down a dark road. I love pretty much every book that Will Dennis is the editor on, but not because he's the editor.

The other big difference between most editors of today and in years past is that many editors today have never worked as writers or artists in comics before ascending to the editors position.

Iron sharpens Iron!

Who is buying (or telling people to buy) comics because of a given editor? I honestly can't think of a time I've bought a book because of the editor, nor can I think of a time I've had someone recommend a book to me because of it.

[David]

Vince can fully embrace Hindu god cloning, but the one time it's done to a Norse god, the idea get's donkey punched in the nuts.....

[/quote]

You and your instant recall. I will not be shackled by LOGIC! 

(Nice. Hand the gun to Mr. Price and load it, whydoncha?)

Heh.  Just  to get an old fashion Dave/Vince  that we all can't help but watch...sort of like midget porn. 

Well, of course.  There's no MARVEL banner on the Virgin cover, so the idea is a valid one when it plays out over there.



(It could also be that that was one piece of a larger pie that he found distasteful, so I'll cut the poor lad some slack)

I'll have to check that Virgin series out.

Me too.

[VinceB]

Well, of course.  There's no MARVEL banner on the Virgin cover, so the idea is a valid one when it plays out over there.

*sigh*

 

[tomkaters]

Wood...I read Judenhass. It was really interesting.

[Wood]

Wood...I read Judenhass. It was really interesting.

Good to hear someone else read it, too! I'm pretty mortified at how I rambled while talking about this book, but hopefully I got across three key points:

*** It was tough to read
*** It was meant to be
*** Dave Sim seems to have had the best intentions with this book

Did you see it that way, too, Tom?

[Chris]

Iron sharpens Iron!

Who is buying (or telling people to buy) comics because of a given editor? I honestly can't think of a time I've bought a book because of the editor, nor can I think of a time I've had someone recommend a book to me because of it.

You haven't, and are a smart enough reader/consumer to not do that.
But mark my words, the day is coming when the big two start making a much bigger deal about the editorial teams. David mentioned that editors are the ones who take blame when things don't go well. I've been noticing things like Breevort throwing Dan Slot under the bus for missing deadlines, and that's just not cool. I also think Breevort is the guilty party in pushing Secret Invasion into an "Event" when I think it would have been a fantastic self contained story within the two Avengers series.

It's a thin line between too much editorial control and not enough. Image suffered from unbridled creators in the 90s, and right now I feel like editorial is too heavy handed in the "creative" direction that Marvel is taking.

Just my 2 cents.

[tomkaters]

Good to hear someone else read it, too! I'm pretty mortified at how I rambled while talking about this book, but hopefully I got across three key points:

*** It was tough to read
*** It was meant to be
*** Dave Sim seems to have had the best intentions with this book

Did you see it that way, too, Tom?

It was very tough read...now I have seen some criticism where a few of the quotes used could be considered "out of context". But I haven't looked into myself so I can't validate that.

The idea is a very important one...we have a tendency to write off horrible events as being a one million thing. The book does a great job of showing that the Holocaust wasn't some random event that came out of nowhere, it was born out of something that has existed for a long time.

I give him a lot of credit for making it very affordable as well.

[DGoodhart]

Haven't listened yet, but just wanted to say something about the Chuck Dixon thing... at least it seemed to me that when it was announced he was coming back to DC, the general fan consensus was along the lines of "who gives a fuck" and now that this has happened, it's like the most evil thing that's ever been done...

[Chris]

Haven't listened yet, but just wanted to say something about the Chuck Dixon thing... at least it seemed to me that when it was announced he was coming back to DC, the general fan consensus was along the lines of "who gives a fuck" and now that this has happened, it's like the most evil thing that's ever been done...

There are A LOT of Dixon fans out there. His work on the Bat Family created a strong following of fans. I'm one of them.

I think he's a guy that won't put up with much bullshit. That doesn't always fly at companies that want people to file into line on stuff.

[Wood]

Haven't listened yet, but just wanted to say something about the Chuck Dixon thing... at least it seemed to me that when it was announced he was coming back to DC, the general fan consensus was along the lines of "who gives a fuck" and now that this has happened, it's like the most evil thing that's ever been done...

I'm intrigued by the soap opera aspect of it; because it was abrupt and Dixon made it a public issue by posting a one liner on his message board. But in terms of the "importance" of the situation; I could give two shits. There are lots of great creators who for various and sundry reasons don't get regular work or aren't afforded ongoing deals. This is just the latest.

Since I like watching train wrecks, I'm curious as to what happened. But I won't lose sleep if I don't find out.

It seems to me that those people reading Dixon's books were enjoying them (I don't read either BATO or Robin; but have ordered the first BATO trade) so I'm bummed for them.