11 O'Clock Comics Episode 87

[Richard]

THAT IS NOT TRUE!! 

Farrell it's true, you must accept it....

[NeverWanderer (Joey Cruz)]

Glad to hear that. I have to say that I realize art is subjective, but to my mind Mouse Guard is literally on another level that transcends simply being known as a comic, whereas Mice Templar falls well short of that mark. To me MG is among the most accomplished fantasy works of its generation. Hearing Vince say he prefers Templar was akin to how he must feel when I tell him I prefer Liefeld to Ditko.

Heheh. I definitely agree with you on MG's quality. I... don't really even think I have the words to express how special that book is. Like I've said elsewhere, before Asterios Polyp came along, that was the book of the year for me.

As for Mice Templar, I enjoyed it quite a bit more than you seem to have. Maybe it's just because heroic fantasy has been my "thing" for a long time, and I have never been pleased with past attempts at bringing that genre to comics, but I thought Mouse Guard was beautiful and engrossing from the very beginning. Before that book, I actually wasn't much of an Oeming fan because his Bruce-Timm-ish style never impressed me. When the first issue of MT dropped, though, I felt like I was looking at a completely new artist. And his writing with Bryan Glass really pulled me into the world of the story without any of the stilted scripting so many other fantasy comics were guilty of. My only complaint at first was that some of the different mice were difficult to tell apart, but that didn't keep me from enjoying it overall.

Like you said, Mouse Guard seems to have transcended the medium, but I would still put Mice Templar near, if not at, the top of the fantasy comic pile.

[darrell]

What is the constant in this classic vs. contemporary debate? What is the static, unchanging element in the midst of the passage of time and countless pairs of eyes? THE ART. To impose benchmarks based on both the passage of time and change on something that does not and CAN NOT change is a demand the art can NEVER MEET. You either accept the art on its own terms or you don't.

I know its suppose to be blasphemy to say this but Im not really a Kirby fan. His art style is dynamic but to me alot of it is extremely dated. I think the best of Kirby was his Forth World work but his FF is just not something I enjoy reading.

[Stupendous Man]

Chris, I really enjoyed the Bourbon education!  Very interesting stuff.  Have you ever tried Blanton's?  Delicious and in a ridiculously cool bottle as well.

One thing on Bendis' dialogue.  He uses the word 'this' a ton.  I noticed it at one point and now it jumps out at me.  That's really the only quibble I have with his stuff.  I love his work, everything from Jinx to the Avengers watching TV.

[GreenzoOut]

I want to be clear about my comments at the end of the show. I LOVE early Marvel books. Stan Lee brought a level of sophistication and world building to comics that had never been done before. He and the rest of the Bullpen created a universe that we all still love to this day.
Today's writers and artists owe them a huge thank you for their pioneering work.

I absolutely loved this portion of the show.  I think that you're right re: dialogue in the old books--it doesn't stand up to contemporary stuff.  But I never thought that you in any way denied the importance of the early Marvel stuff.  Lee & Co's great triumph was to create characters that serve as archetypes for dozens of other writers/artists to tell stories with, and update them to reflect current society. 

And to me, that's the true beauty of comics.  Comic book writers are able to take characters that are familiar to our parents and grandparents and update them to reflect/comment on current society, meet the desires of today's readers, and continue to mature in storytelling capability--all while maintaining a shared universe/continuity.  No other medium can respond so quickly to change, and yet still maintain its legacy.  And it was Lee and others who paved the way for this to happen.

Great discussion on the show.  Well done.

[BurlIves]

I think the mistake is for people see the progression of art as being on a linear scale, as in Early/Primitive to Later/Refined, and often ascribe a relative value to the points on that scale.  The fact of the matter is that the progression of art is cyclical, not linear.  It's just harder to get a sense of perspective with comics - the medium as we understand it is still pretty new.  

It's easier to see with music, which seems to cycle a lot more quickly.  Right now, stuff is waxing more progressive. It'll run it's course,and in a while some snot nosed garage band will bring out a much needed kick to the nads.  And people will be wondering how their dads put up with that Animal Collective shit.

Shakespeare was considered a hack for quite a while after his death, until his work was reevaluated by critics in the 18th and 19th centuries.  Beowulf is considered by turns to be either crudely and poorly plotted or to presage the postmodern.  Now, I understand that a novel in Iambic Pentameter might not sell well to today's audience; maybe tastes are becoming less refined, not more.  At some point audiences will lose their taste for realism in comics, and a little while later they'll get it back.

[outcastjon]

I want to be clear about my comments at the end of the show. I LOVE early Marvel books. Stan Lee brought a level of sophistication and world building to comics that had never been done before. He and the rest of the Bullpen created a universe that we all still love to this day.
Today's writers and artists owe them a huge thank you for their pioneering work.

Hey Chris I totally understood what you were saying.

Comics today are written more like episodes on television. Where there is deeper character development, plots that are more thought and planned to be either finished at the end of the "episode" or run throughout the "season" of the story. And, that's why comics today can be turned into great motion comics.

Comics from back in the day of Stan Lee, Kirby, and Ditko were not that deep of stories, fun? Yes. Could you turn it into a motion comic and not sound hokey? No.

These comics will always hold a place in our hearts and history, but they are not the great comics we get today.

[BurlIves]

And while I'm normally a vehement member of the Vince Army, I guess I gotta break rank on the Mouse Templar.  I thought I was the only one who couldn't tell what was going on.

[darrell]

And while I'm normally a vehement member of the Vince Army, I guess I gotta break rank on the Mouse Templar.  I thought I was the only one who couldn't tell what was going on.

No your not

[Pat Loika]

Hey Darrell, I punched the Hulk for you...then we both had a chat and decided to punch Uatu again.

P.

[VinceB]

On this I "think" we can agree. The art doesn't change. The people do.

I'm with you on everything except the "doesn't hold up" part. 

[Chris]

Yeah, I think when people say that (including me) we're really saying "doesn't match the current pallet".

[David D.]

Another great show, guys.

I think, in some future show, long enough from now that they will forget this post, Vince should take time to lovingly describe the most batshit crazy comic anyone had ever heard of, and get the rest of the guys listen along, good sports that they are, and see if any of them catch onto the fact that the book doesn't exist and you are making it all up.

[VinceB]

I think, in some future show, long enough from now that they will forget this post, Vince should take time to lovingly describe the most batshit crazy comic anyone had ever heard of, and get the rest of the guys listen along, good sports that they are, and see if any of them catch onto the fact that the book doesn't exist and you are making it all up.

The book in question exists, my friend. All I'd have to do is describe the contents of any of my copies of Le Dernier Cri's Hopital Brut anthology and I can guarantee you we'd have a LOT less regular listeners after that episode.

I warned you.

[David D.]

The book in question exists, my friend. All I'd have to do is describe the contents of any of my copies of Le Dernier Cri's Hopital Brut anthology and I can guarantee you we'd have a LOT less regular listeners after that episode.

I warned you.

Oh I know the book in THIS episode exists.  I would just love for you in some episode to make one up, as crazy as can be, pretending to love it, and see if you can sneak it past the rest of the guys.  For a laugh.


Also, I really dug all the Bill Mantlo talk.  About 10 years back or so, when I was getting back into comics full-force, I tracked down all of the original run of Alpha Flight in cheap bins, and there were some things about the Byrne to Mantlo switch that I dug, but some things that were a hard switch.  I personally wasn't a fan of what he did with Puck, but he did bring a lot of other cool ideas to the table.  And so much other great work, classics like Cloak & Dagger. 

[Farrell]

The book in question exists, my friend. All I'd have to do is describe the contents of any of my copies of Le Dernier Cri's Hopital Brut anthology and I can guarantee you we'd have a LOT less regular listeners after that episode.

I warned you.

That looks cool.  What 40 Euros in American dollars? 

[templar]

Only just jumped on here. Downloaded and ready to get me through a hangover. The Work Christmas party will fade away but 11 o'clock will live long into the day.

[Spooky]

That looks cool.  What 40 Euros in American dollars? 

Just to be sure, that you weren't joking - it's 57.26$. Also, does not only the book exists but an animation of the same name as well.

<a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x1864q" target="_blank">http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x1864q</a> <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x186ez" target="_blank">http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x186ez</a> <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x186oe" target="_blank">http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x186oe</a>

Preach it, Vince!

[VinceB]

That looks cool.  What 40 Euros in American dollars? 

I bought the book a few years ago for $50, and at the time that was considered a steal. Most of the book is hand screen-printed with different paper stocks and weights and features smaller zines bound-in. The production is incredible, something that can be said for anything out of Le Dernier Cri.

[New Mutant]

I'm with you on everything except the "doesn't hold up" part. 

Yeah, I think when people say that (including me) we're really saying "doesn't match the current pallet".

Did anyone see that Christmas movie with Whoopi Goldberg where

she becomes Santa Claus

?  Well before that happens she's this cranky, emotionally wounded TV exec who gripes in the morning about getting her latte from her assistant.  One morning she goes in and she's on full production mode with the "Get this done, do that, do this other thing," when she goes straight into this riff "And where's my latte? Why every morning I have to beg for my latte?" in Whoopi fashion.  Well I died.  I don't if it was the Whoopism (as she did it so classically in Ghost when she interpreted Sam's messages to Molly while fussing back at Sam.  Sam: Tell her she's in danger!  Whoopi: Stop yelling at me! *pause* Molly....you in danger, girl.)

So all I could hear in my head was Whoopi going "Why I got to beg for my latte?" every time Chris tried to assert that he's wasn't saying he thought the classics weren't good--and his example was that he read the FF dialogue from a $75 dollar FF collection that he wouldn't have bought if he didn't value the classics.  But still the debate raged on.  And I found myself asking aloud, "Why Chris got to beg for understanding?"  

So that's my new reaction whenever someone just isn't listening to the other person's defense.  "Why I got to beg?"