11 O'Clock Comics Episode 114

[Peter]

I love Vince, but good on Chris for calling him out on the Jonah Hex movie comment. I've seen it - it's not a great movie. But it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Ghost Rider. The defense of the Ghost Rider movie that follows the JHex talk as a way to compare it to JHex is laughable. Jonah Hex > Ghost Rider.  

[Andy Jewett]

If you don't think your own work is worthwhile, why would anyone else?

Could it also be making your art more accessible to more people?

[David]

Jonah Hex > Ghost Rider.

This I gotta see.

Maybe.

One day.

[Farrell]

Speaking of Ghost Rider the movie, which I didn't see because I'm not on drugs, I've heard that the second will be directed by Nevaldine and Taylor of Crank fame, which makes me very tempted to start taking drugs....I mean, go to see the sequel.

[Dave A]

Could it also be making your art more accessible to more people?

That may be what it is in the mind of the creator, but most customers don't perceive it that way (interestingly enough). Customers tend to want to feel like they're getting the best for their money, and tend to be willing to pay a little bit more for quality (even if it's only perceived quality). Why hasn't the preponderance of store brand foods at the supermarket driven every name brand out of business, when the product are typically of negligible (at best) difference in quality? Because no one wants to drink supermarket brand cola instead of Coke or Pepsi... that's what the poor people do.

I produce reference publications for a large research company. A couple years ago, our competitor started killing us in print sales because they doubled the size of their set by adding in reams of gibberish research -- they literally made it more difficult to use their product, adding in thousands of pages of junk that customers would have to weed through in order to find the quality meat. But, we had to follow suit, or be driven out of the marketplace... customers saw a larger, more expensive product, and assumed that it was superior.

Loopy, I know.

[Andy Jewett]

That may be what it is in the mind of the creator, but most customers don't perceive it that way (interestingly enough). Customers tend to want to feel like they're getting the best for their money, and tend to be willing to pay a little bit more for quality (even if it's only perceived quality). Why hasn't the preponderance of store brand foods at the supermarket driven every name brand out of business, when the product are typically of negligible (at best) difference in quality? Because no one wants to drink supermarket brand cola instead of Coke or Pepsi... that's what the poor people do.

I produce reference publications for a large research company. A couple years ago, our competitor started killing us in print sales because they doubled the size of their set by adding in reams of gibberish research -- they literally made it more difficult to use their product, adding in thousands of pages of junk that customers would have to weed through in order to find the quality meat. But, we had to follow suit, or be driven out of the marketplace... customers saw a larger, more expensive product, and assumed that it was superior.

Loopy, I know.

Karma.

[Andy Jewett]

I kinda don't hate the Ghost Rider movie.

[Farrell]

I produce reference publications for a large research company. A couple years ago, our competitor started killing us in print sales because they doubled the size of their set by adding in reams of gibberish research -- they literally made it more difficult to use their product, adding in thousands of pages of junk that customers would have to weed through in order to find the quality meat. But, we had to follow suit, or be driven out of the marketplace... customers saw a larger, more expensive product, and assumed that it was superior.

I agree that people often attach value to size (shh) and focus less on the quality, quality being much more difficult to assess at a glance.  But if this competitor had only charged more, without adding all that gibberish research, do you think they would have had the same success?  I ran into this a lot in my videogame retailing days where "how long is it?" was a very common question.  Sometimes customers would give you the feeling they'd feel better about their purchase of a game where they wandered aimlessly for 50 hours than one where they had a dense, powerful, exciting experience for 20.  

What about an established creator, though?  Is there a point at which you think that customers have already made up their minds about the quality they have come to expect and would look at a lower price point as a bonus?  I'm a big fan of Phil Hester as a writer, and was glad to see his recent Vampirella series retail at $2 an issue.  I probably would have wondered why it was cheaper than every other book if I wasn't familiar with the creative team, but as it was, I was reasonably sure that he didn't magically become a talentless hack because this book cost less.

[Dave A]

I agree that people often attach value to size (shh) and focus less on the quality, quality being much more difficult to assess at a glance.  But if this competitor had only charged more, without adding all that gibberish research, do you think they would have had the same success?  I ran into this a lot in my videogame retailing days where "how long is it?" was a very common question.  Sometimes customers would give you the feeling they'd feel better about their purchase of a game where they wandered aimlessly for 50 hours than one where they had a dense, powerful, exciting experience for 20.

That's a good point, and I think it was as much to do with the sizing as with the pricing. But, the pricing is definitely another factor in that equation... we and our competitor are the two big brands in this field of research, and therefore cost the most. I've seen with my own eyes that other companies provide comparable-to-superior product, and are not viewed as comparable-to-superior. Why? They cost less.

We recently saw an example in comics where a price bump + size bump didn't equate bigger sales than just a price bump. The premium Marvel titles went up to $3.99 with no extra content; DC introduced a $3.99 price point with 10 extra pages of content. Despite a lot of internet lip service, I think we quickly saw who won that battle (and I wasn't a bit surprised).

What about an established creator, though?  Is there a point at which you think that customers have already made up their minds about the quality they have come to expect and would look at a lower price point as a bonus?  I'm a big fan of Phil Hester as a writer, and was glad to see his recent Vampirella series retail at $2 an issue.  I probably would have wondered why it was cheaper than every other book if I wasn't familiar with the creative team, but as it was, I was reasonably sure that he didn't magically become a talentless hack because this book cost less.

Here's the funny thing about books at a lower price point... I think that if it's done as a promotion, like say the Vertigo $1 first issues, it can be very effective. But that's only because the book goes back up to standard price after that. If you have a cheapy first issue and promote it as such, you're saying "We've got something so good, we want EVERYONE to have a chance to try it. After you see how good it is, you'll gladly pay full price!"

On the flip side, if you just charge less for your book in general, what you're saying is "Yeahhhh, you'd probably rather buy Batman or Avengers, wouldn't you? We can't really compete with that... but, if you have a little extra money this week, our book is cheap at least!" Hester is someone you're familiar with and like, but he's not a top 10 creator as far as recognizability, and a price point like that isn't aimed at picking up Hester fans (which are already assumed to be interested in the product) so much as people who don't really know who he is.

Long answer short (too late): Phil Hester isn't doing himself any favors charging less than the industry standard for his work.

[deadcowaroma]

I’ve said it before, but I like the Fantastic Four summary pages. It’s not like Hickman’s saying in them “The Thing punched Galactus in the face”. They are talking about meetings and writing treaties and stuff that he doesn’t feel is necessary to spend an issue on. He’s doing this so that people CAN have fun action in their comics and not have to sit through 4 pages of talking heads at the UN.

And FYI Chris, there is lots of new adult people getting into comics (myself included...and many more people on these forums). I've only been reading really for 5 years or so.  

[VinceB]

Jonah Hex > Ghost Rider.  

As one of the people with opinions I trust, I'll take your word for it and leave it at that.  

[Just Bill]

I kinda don't hate the Ghost Rider movie.

I didn't hate it either.  Nicholas Cage made some very weird decisions about the character of Johnny Blaze that were unnecessary, but it still was pretty cool seeing a dude with a flaming skull riding a motorcycle.  I've probably forgotten 98% of the movie now, but I was at least mildly entertained at the time.  I'd probably even watch it again.

[deadcowaroma]

Hey Vince, you think you could revise you "play all voicemails" policy? This dudes annoying as fuck.

[Dave A]

I kinda don't hate the Ghost Rider movie.

I loved Ghost Rider!  

Part of it's expectations, though... the Ghost Rider movie was, eh, about like most of the Ghost Rider comics I've read. Dumb fun. It came out before the Jason Aaron run, so there wasn't really much by way of high quality Ghost Rider comics I'd seen to that point. When I compared the movie to the comics, I thought, "Yep, that's about right."

I've read over 100 AWESOME Jonah Hex comics, though... so my expectations are a little higher. And it's incredibly disappointing to feel like the people who made the movie didn't even try to capture what was great about the character or concept.

Same thing happened with Constantine... most people I know who've seen it and not read the comics thought it was a pretty ok movie. From my point of view as a rabid Hellblazer fan? FUCK. THAT. MOVIE.

[InspectorSpacetime]

i passed on both ghost rider and jonah hex movies. instead on my next vacation ill spend the runtimes of each movie reading jason aarons ghost rider and as many jonah hex issues that fill 2 hours.

thats what i call........................

[VinceB]

Hey Vince, you think you could revise you "play all voicemails" policy? This dudes annoying as fuck.

If the mob wants it, the mob gets it.

[Matt H.O.W.L.]

Some more Bulletproof Coffin images from upcoming issues HERE.

[David]

Speaking of Ghost Rider the movie, which I didn't see because I'm not on drugs...

 

I kinda don't hate the Ghost Rider movie.

Don't hide it, man.  Be loud and proud!

[Andy Jewett]

Heh, like Bill said some weird character choice by Mr. Cage... but I didn't hate Ghost Rider the movie. Some of it was pretty awesome and true to classic Ghost Rider form, borderline goofy, over the top characters... and a flaming skull man riding a hog. okay. There was definitely some painful moments as well.

I would love to see a darker more serious version with an intense story line but I own the DVD and watch it occasionally. I never read Hellblazer until after seeing Constantine so yeah I don't hate the movie, but I get why a die-hard fan of the books would (don't get me started on the Harry Potter movies).

I haven't really read Jonah Hex much so maybe I should see the movie while there is still a chance not to loathe it?

[David]

When I saw the Ghost Rider trailer, I pretty much knew what I was getting.  Including cheesy F/X.  I'm used to movies based on comic books to take liberties.  And the Ghost Rider movie did that.

When I saw the Jonah Hex trailer it pretty much told me to not bother.  Raising the dead, Bond-like gadgets, Megan Fox, and horse-mounted Gatling guns were red flags to me.  I can live with hokey dialogue and tweaked origins.  But aside from his face, nothing told me this was Jonah Hex.  This movie could have been anything else.  It could have been Wild Wild West II.

Those that saw it and liked it, cool.  I'm happy for ya.  For realz.

I’ve said it before, but I like the Fantastic Four summary pages.

Yes you have.

It’s not like Hickman’s saying in them “The Thing punched Galactus in the face”. They are talking about meetings and writing treaties and stuff that he doesn’t feel is necessary to spend an issue on.

Then save it for the opening recap page.  Don't end the issue with it.  Stops me cold and, yes, I feel cheated.

He’s doing this so that people CAN have fun action in their comics and not have to sit through 4 pages of talking heads at the UN.

Well then that's just poor planning and management.

I like pictures in my comic books.