Robert Kirkman on Marvel & DC, Reviving Image and Saving Comics

[steve bryant]

Robert Kirkman talks about leaving Marvel, reviving Image and saving the industry.

Right now, the comic industry is backwards. No one watches a movie and decides that they want to do movies and only ever aspires to do Pulp Fiction II. And no one reads a novel and decides they want to do novels and only ever aspires to do Moby Dick II.

...and a whole lot more.

Robert Kirkman is my hero.

[Equinox]

So Marvel should move all its characters to "Marvel Adventures" titles, DC should print all its heroes in "Johnny DC" books, and all of us should be buying only Indie books?

Honestly, even as a kid, I was always attracted to the regular Marvel and DC books that were part of their mainstream continuity.  Based on current sales figures (Wood just perked up), comics will continue to thrive in the future; they'll all just be coming out of Japan though unless Marvel, DC and the Independent publishers pay attention to the market forces at work.

[Alec B.]

So Marvel should move all its characters to "Marvel Adventures" titles, DC should print all its heroes in "Johnny DC" books, and all of us should be buying only Indie books?

Honestly, even as a kid, I was always attracted to the regular Marvel and DC books that were part of their mainstream continuity.  Based on current sales figures (Wood just perked up), comics will continue to thrive in the future; they'll all just be coming out of Japan though unless Marvel, DC and the Independent publishers pay attention to the market forces at work.

I can see that happening, and it scares me. I will explain more in the up coming Teenage Wasteland article.

To the point. I just don't really dig the anime/manga type of story telling and artwork.

Alec

[evaD]

I can see that happening, and it scares me. I will explain more in the up coming Teenage Wasteland article.

To the point. I just don't really dig the anime/manga type of story telling and artwork.

Alec

I can kinda agree with that.I enjoy some of the really well written/drawn stuff, like Akira(for example) but generally don't get into it.

[deadcowaroma]

I think it's pretty brave for Kirkman to come out and say this. I think he's totally right... but at the same time I think he's overly optimistic about the solution. It's not going to be easy to just get people to buy non dc and marvel books.

I don't think providing more creator owned books will increase sales, nor do I think that reducing top tier talents on mainstream books will help either...at least not initially. If you start taking the Bendis's and Johns's away from Marvel and DC, I think we would be more likely to lose readers, not transfer them over to Image, Dark Horse, etc. Sure, there will be a portion that move over, but I would guess that the majority of readers will either leave or stick with Marvel and DC.

I wish it was as easy as Kirkman thinks it is though, and I would love to see more creators do original books....

[steve bryant]

So Marvel should move all its characters to "Marvel Adventures" titles, DC should print all its heroes in "Johnny DC" books, and all of us should be buying only Indie books?

Hmmm...here's what Kirkman said about the "Marvel Adventures" line and other kid-targeted lines:

I know that there are "Adventures" lines and stuff like that but it -- those are--those talk down to kids to a certain extent. And that's not what kids want. Kids want to feel like they're reading something that's, you know, not necessarily meant for them but appropriate for them. And that's what we need to do.

Doesn't sound like he's a fan of the Marvel Adventures and Johnny DC lines to me.

Honestly, even as a kid, I was always attracted to the regular Marvel and DC books that were part of their mainstream continuity.

Me too. I think that's what Kirkman liked. Too bad that those books are no longer appropriate for all ages.

"All ages" does not have to mean kiddie fare. The Incredibles was an all ages movie. Anything published under the Comics Code Authority would fit into the all ages category—this would include The Judas Contract, Tomb of Dracula, the entire Byrne FF run, Dark Phoenix, Batman: Year One and more.

[Equinox]

Hmmm...here's what Kirkman said about the "Marvel Adventures" line and other kid-targeted lines:

Doesn't sound like he's a fan of the Marvel Adventures and Johnny DC lines to me.

Me too. I think that's what Kirkman liked. Too bad that those books are no longer appropriate for all ages.

"All ages" does not have to mean kiddie fare. The Incredibles was an all ages movie. Anything published under the Comics Code Authority would fit into the all ages category—this would include The Judas Contract, Tomb of Dracula, the entire Byrne FF run, Dark Phoenix, Batman: Year One and more.

Crossdresser, I mean, crossposter       Karma and always good vibes to you and your work!  Additional kudos for cutting out the "9 to 5" and having to a chance to create full-time. 

[steve bryant]

Crossdresser,

I was told that no one would see those photos.   

I was young and needed the money!

[Scott C.]

Part of me wants to be really cynical towards Kirkman's video.  I don't know why.  Maybe because he's just another one of those current creators who I just don't get. 

I think his heart is in the right place.  After all, isn't he about as old now (30 next year) as the original founders were when they formed Image?  (Quick wikipedia search shows that the founders were anywhere from 25is-40is when Image formed.)  He should have the same desire as they did years ago.  And it's great to hear a high-profile creator talk about getting away from Marvel and DC.  I can only hope for a world where I could read Casanova, Criminal or Powers more often than I read Iron Man, Captain America or Secret Invasion. 

I really wonder where he can take Image now and what kind of influence he has among the partners.  Heck, I wonder what kind of influence the partners have on the company outside of their own little fiefdoms.  It's a call to arms, that's for sure but who's going to answer it?  Greg Rucka's about halfway there being one of the few other high profile creators right now that I can think of that isn't under an exclusive. 

While the companies maintain some rights, I would like to hear what Kirkman thinks of Icon and Vertigo.  There's a form of creator ownership with other rights given over to the publisher.  But Icon does allow Brubaker to have his cake (Captain America) and eat it too (Criminal.)  Of course, Icon is only opened to a privileged select and I wonder how open it is to non-exclusive creators.  Is JMS welcomed into the clubhouse anymore?

And of course, this opens up the chicken and the egg question.  What came first-- readers who won't read anything but superhero comics or publishers who won't publish anything but superhero comics?  And the answer is both I guess. 

Wow, that's a lot of rambling going on there.

[adam hegg]

I am intrigued.

I buy what could only be called an ass-ton of books a week and the vast majority of them are Marvel and DC.

But here is the thing. I have no idea why...and I don't feel bad about it. My favorite books are creator owned (exceptions being Daredevil and All-Star Superman). And yet I have spent literally hundreds of dollars on stuff that I read...liked...but will likely not read again published by the big two that have not made me do the scooby doo " 'rwaruuuh?'of awesomeness ".

I will be culling my pull list. I only hope that in that cutting chute I add in some creator owned and independently  published work...but I am not convinced that "creator owned" naturally translates into awesome. It has thus far been my experience...but I need to do more reading.

If anything this thread is going to make me read more. That is a good thing.

[Chad (Grilled Cheese Sandwich)]

I like his ideas...they are completely unlikely to happen, pie-in-the-sky optimistic, but I like them.

I have to say that what Kirkman wants to do is simple and it works. He wants to create a minor leagues and major league of comics...here's my take and translation:

Single A: Creator owned work, self-published. His Battle Pope, as an example. More of a calling card and tryout piece to garner attention.

Double A: Single issue fill-ins or publisher assigned duties dealing with fringe or new characters. SuperPatriot fits this bill.

Triple A: Work done at the AA level warrants being able to play with the big boys and you get called up to Marvel and DC, writing works that are not written with my five year old in mind, per say, but an 8 or 9 year old would be able to enjoy it and learn from the stories, while the average adult reader can still enjoy nuanced story-telling. Kirkman's time at Marvel fits this bill.

Major Leagues: Having worked out all of the kinks in their game, the creator will branch out on their own, creating works that are designed primarily for older, more knowledgeable fans. By doing this, they are becoming their own boss for the most part, and can create stories they want to tell. Walking Dead, Invincible, etc...

The only problems I see, are the above stated fact that it probably won't ever happen this way and once a writer makes it to the "big leagues," are the sales they take with them going to stick around for DC & Marvel? Will the big two be willing to just let creators walk away, or will they throw the big safe contract, laden with security and benefits, at them and will creators be willing to walk away from that? Unless Image and Dark Horse are willing to do something akin to guarantees for creator owned work in exchange for a larger piece of the sales, I see hard times ahead for Mr. Kirkman's plan. He's appealing to the long-term sense of a company that is designed to make money. Money in the hand is more certain than possible money down the road and every company is going to choose the guaranteed money.

[steve bryant]

The only problems I see, are the above stated fact that it probably won't ever happen this way and once a writer makes it to the "big leagues," are the sales they take with them going to stick around for DC & Marvel? Will the big two be willing to just let creators walk away, or will they throw the big safe contract, laden with security and benefits, at them and will creators be willing to walk away from that?

A Kirkman transcription:

But at the end of the day: when you're hot, you're hot. When you're not, you're not.  Then when you're not hot, they don't want you and your career is over. And that's bad for creators. The thing you need to do is, eventually, go off and do creator-owned stuff. It's been proven that when you do creator-owned work, your life in the industry will grow a little longer.

I think he's referring to a Herb Trimpe situation. Trimpe wrote an op/ed piece for the New York Times detailing getting phased out of the industry in 2000 after 26 years of faithful service (read the link, it's sad). That happens to a lot of the old guard creators. You can never get fired from a creator-owned book. And if your creator-owned book is optioned in Hollywood, you make the money.

Kirkman is talking about creators investing in themselves.

The next two sentences from Kirkman's video:

They sell very little, but they make a lot of money because they're not paying for a corporation. I have artists that make a living just doing my book.

Let me explain what Kirkman is saying when he uses the phrase "They sell very little..."

10,000 units is guaranteed cancellation for a Marvel or DC book. If I were to sell 10,000 copies of every issue of Athena Voltaire, I would need to produce eight issues a year to be able to match or exceed what I earned as a graphic designer at the gun magazine I worked at. And I would be able to pay my colorist the going rate.

If we were to sell 15,000 copies, it would take six issues a year to match/exceed that salary.

[Derek Coward]

I only made it only 20 seconds into the video before I cut it off.  The sound quality was horrible and I have a question, was there anything in his message that required video?

I read the text piece underneath and it seems as though I am not the target audience for the message because I am not a big name creator.  However, as someone who supports the whole DIY mentality of punk rock/indie comics/podcasting, I see what he is saying and get behind that.

A few months ago I did a poll on my website where I asked "Which would you rather do?"
Work for Marvel Comics
Work for DC Comics
Work for an indie publisher
Start my own company

I seriously thought that 'Start my own company' would win hands down.  It came in third behind work for Marvel and work for DC.  A couple of people told me that they weren't necessarily creative enough to come up with their own characters, but had ideas for characters that they grew up with.  That blew my mind because although I didn't ask what those ideas were I'll bet they weren't anything that couldn't have been stripped from the DC/Marvel character and applied to something original.

And originality is the real problem that I can see with his plan.  Comic book readers don't necessarily like things that are original or new.  They like recurring themes with familiar characters.  And a LOT of them won't even try something that doesn't say DC or Marvel on the cover.  And a lot of those who will try something else won't go too far from Image or Dark Horse.  And if you get someone who is deep into Ape, Markosia, BOOM!, Avatar, Archaia or Red 5, it is difficult to convince them that DC/Marvel can even DO anything original or new, so they don't check out books like The Vinyl Underground or Young Liars and those books fail once again reinforcing the theory that comic book fans don't want anything original or new.

Damn, I should have saved this for my podcast.

[David]

Damn, I should have saved this for my podcast.

That's TWO!

I love it.

[steve bryant]

A few months ago I did a poll on my website where I asked "Which would you rather do?"
Work for Marvel Comics
Work for DC Comics
Work for an indie publisher
Start my own company

I seriously thought that 'Start my own company' would win hands down.  It came in third behind work for Marvel and work for DC.  A couple of people told me that they weren't necessarily creative enough to come up with their own characters, but had ideas for characters that they grew up with.  That blew my mind because although I didn't ask what those ideas were I'll bet they weren't anything that couldn't have been stripped from the DC/Marvel character and applied to something original.

And originality is the real problem that I can see with his plan.  Comic book readers don't necessarily like things that are original or new.  They like recurring themes with familiar characters.  And a LOT of them won't even try something that doesn't say DC or Marvel on the cover.  And a lot of those who will try something else won't go too far from Image or Dark Horse.  And if you get someone who is deep into Ape, Markosia, BOOM!, Avatar, Archaia or Red 5, it is difficult to convince them that DC/Marvel can even DO anything original or new, so they don't check out books like The Vinyl Underground or Young Liars and those books fail once again reinforcing the theory that comic book fans don't want anything original or new.

Damn, I should have saved this for my podcast.

God, that's depressing, too. This whole Kirkman thing had me fired up this morning, but the more I learn about what the readership wants (and how it differs from my own tastes), the more stupid I feel for doing indie comics—or comics in general. The stuff I want to read or create is worthless in the eyes of the larger comic-buying public and that will never change.

Good to know,  guess.

I'm going to try and get some work done.

[Wood]

I only made it only 20 seconds into the video before I cut it off.  The sound quality was horrible and I have a question, was there anything in his message that required video?

I read the text piece underneath and it seems as though I am not the target audience for the message because I am not a big name creator.  However, as someone who supports the whole DIY mentality of punk rock/indie comics/podcasting, I see what he is saying and get behind that.

A few months ago I did a poll on my website where I asked "Which would you rather do?"
Work for Marvel Comics
Work for DC Comics
Work for an indie publisher
Start my own company

I seriously thought that 'Start my own company' would win hands down.  It came in third behind work for Marvel and work for DC.  A couple of people told me that they weren't necessarily creative enough to come up with their own characters, but had ideas for characters that they grew up with.  That blew my mind because although I didn't ask what those ideas were I'll bet they weren't anything that couldn't have been stripped from the DC/Marvel character and applied to something original.

And originality is the real problem that I can see with his plan.  Comic book readers don't necessarily like things that are original or new.  They like recurring themes with familiar characters.  And a LOT of them won't even try something that doesn't say DC or Marvel on the cover.  And a lot of those who will try something else won't go too far from Image or Dark Horse.  And if you get someone who is deep into Ape, Markosia, BOOM!, Avatar, Archaia or Red 5, it is difficult to convince them that DC/Marvel can even DO anything original or new, so they don't check out books like The Vinyl Underground or Young Liars and those books fail once again reinforcing the theory that comic book fans don't want anything original or new.

Damn, I should have saved this for my podcast.

Derek, that is all kinds of smart talk right there.  Karma to you in droves.

[David]

I'm going to have to listen to it again.  Something jumped out at me that stuck and prevented me from moving past it, something I didn't necessarily agree with.  So I want to make sure I get it right.

Thanks to Wood, I found out that today's Word Balloon has John talking to Kirkman, where he expounds on his mission statement.

You can get it here.  John plays the audio from the video, so you can listen to all 12 plus minutes of it, as the video on CBR seems to be edited.

[Wood]

God, that's depressing, too. This whole Kirkman thing had me fired up this morning, but the more I learn about what the readership wants (and how it differs from my own tastes), the more stupid I feel for doing indie comics—or comics in general. The stuff I want to read or create is worthless in the eyes of the larger comic-buying public and that will never change.

Good to know,  guess.

I'm going to try and get some work done.

I feel badly for contributing to Steve's sadness. He threw out the idea of 10,000 comics being enough to replace his salary as a graphic designer. Based purely on his cutoff of 10,000 comics, I posted on the CGS forum (where there's a concurrent discussion happening), the following:

How many indie books sell 10,000 copies?

Last month, there were 169 comics that sold 10,000 or more copies into the direct market. This obviously doesn't account for sales at cons or mail order or places like Target, Wal-Mart, etc...

Of those 169 comics, how many were creator-owned?

    * Project Superpowers
    * Boys
    * Spawn
    * BPRD War of Frogs
    * Invincible
    * BPRD Ectoplasmic Man
    * No Hero
    * Abe Sapien The Drowning
    * Witchblade
    * Darkness
    * RASL
    * First Born Aftermath
    * Anna Mercury
    * Grendel Behold the Devil
    * Goon
    * Simon Dark



16 comics out of how many hundreds that came out last month?

While I can understand Robert's point [if he can do it, others can], it's really no different than Michael Jordan telling kids to stick with hoops above all else because they too can be in the NBA someday. The odds are enormously against a guy making a living just on his own creator-owned work.

[steve bryant]

Meh. The odds are against being able to make a living producing comics, too. Why bother?

[Wood]

Meh. The odds are against being able to make a living producing comics, too. Why bother?

Kirkman discusses this more in his talk with Sciuntres. He points out that Invincible sells 15K and makes a good chunk of change. He said he's always made more from his stuff than he did at Marvel, even when he was doing Ultimate Spider-Man.

The other thing to consider is that a writer isn't beholden to one book as you know.