Bendis - Twitter rant

[steve bryant]

Initially, I was of the mind of "How much can you go into an issue of New Avengers?" or whatever.

However, after a little thought, I don't think that we can get American Cinematographer level of analysis, (nor do I think most of the work merits it) but I think that the work certainly merits ew.com level of analysis. They cover weekly episodes of everything from Mad Men to The Big Bang Theory, etc...largely without snark. It's recap heavy, but there are some good observational things going on, as well (see Jeff Jensen's analysis of Lost as it was going on).

Just a thought.

[Chris]

I feel like we're going in circles a bit because Bendis has been very open as he's elaborated on that original tweet. Re: something like the New Avengers, he's not asking for a master's thesis, he's saying that the rants of opinionated fans overtakes the likely decent critical reviews that are out there somewhere.

Not going around in circles. Just trying to understand what he wants.
If he wants the internet to be more well behaved and thoughtful place, I wish him luck.

[RandyG]

I'm still trying to figure out how to write "hard journalism" about Popcorn comics.

[Chris Campbell]

If the demand for hard journalism on comics was there, you'd see more of it, I suppose.  I don't really give a shit about anyone's analysis of New Avengers.  Ben and Luke fighting ninjas.  Bring it.  In my house, we leave the hard journalism to politics...

[Wood]

If the demand for hard journalism on comics was there, you'd see more of it, I suppose.  I don't really give a shit about anyone's analysis of New Avengers.  Ben and Luke fighting ninjas.  Bring it.  In my house, we leave the hard journalism to politics...

Sure, but I would find an article about New Avengers and Bendis' long arc and comparing it to the snapshot of current social and economic realities that shapes Bendis' mindset to be fascinating. Or to discuss, in great detail, how the Avengers franchise and the story-telling are different now because of the advent of the collected edition and changing consumer habits versus the never-ending serialized work that went with things like the Englehart years.

[Chris Campbell]

Sure, but I would find an article about New Avengers and Bendis' long arc and comparing it to the snapshot of current social and economic realities that shapes Bendis' mindset to be fascinating. Or to discuss, in great detail, how the Avengers franchise and the story-telling are different now because of the advent of the collected edition and changing consumer habits versus the never-ending serialized work that went with things like the Englehart years.

Hmmm.  I suppose what I meant to say is that while I might enjoy someone's hard journalistic analysis about various social, economic or cultural themes underlying mainstream comics, that sort of cold analysis is of limited entertainment value to me without that human connection that casual conversation, podcasts and other discussions bring to the table.  And I felt that was something that Bendis was dumping on.  I guess I just love me some informed Op-Ed when it comes to comics (in the form of podcasts like yours).

 

[Sweet_Christmas]

Sure, but I would find an article about New Avengers and Bendis' long arc and comparing it to the snapshot of current social and economic realities that shapes Bendis' mindset to be fascinating. Or to discuss, in great detail, how the Avengers franchise and the story-telling are different now because of the advent of the collected edition and changing consumer habits versus the never-ending serialized work that went with things like the Englehart years.

I would love to read any of those things.   It reminded me of the whole Bendis vs Kirkman thing from a few years ago.   I think the whole debate got some people motivated and generated some thought provoking articles.  

I wonder how much news or hard journalism can be squeezes from  a industry with 300 to 500 thousand customers.  There are stories to be told but we seem to have this demand for news, articles, etc that exceeds the supply.   I mean there are people who check newsarama and cbr every 5 to 10 min for a new article or post.   if your checking that often what do you expect to get other than a preview,solicit or a updated blog.    

[Julian Lytle]

You can analyze "popcorn" comics just like you can analyze big blockbuster films. There are probably some things you can say about the first run of New Avengers. I know you can write some deep shit about Final Crisis, there are even themes that you can debate in Blackest Night. It's also equal in saying that some indie work or mature themed things also isn't worth deep analysis other than what is on the page.

[Kenney]

Everyone saying "there isn't anything to say about mainstream comics" are not only selling mainstream comics short, but also selling short the potential of writers to develop in-depth stories that exist out there about the mainstream stuff.

There is a lot of stuff someone could say about Funhome or Chris Ware's stuff, because it's aiming for that zone. However,you only need to look at someone like Geoff Klock or Murd (of CGS) to see where you can find critical analysis of many mainstream books. Murd wrote his thesis on Crisis of Infinite Earths, and I would just venture to guess that paper is as well thought out, and intellectually stimulating as anything anyone could write about an indie book. Geoff Klock wrote a whole book on superhero comics that I would say the same thing about.

Sure, I might be talking more about critical analysis than journalism, but I think it still fits. Just because you or I aren't smart enough to see all the dots, doesn't mean they aren't there.

I think horror movies are a lot like comic books. They're looked down upon by a certain group of folks, and largely viewed as disposable schlocky entertainment, yet there is a wealth of content out there that explores the greater themes of horror, ideas like the survivor girl, how the movies reflect our fears at given time (atomic age = overgrown bugs and aliens, red scare = body snatcher movies), etc. I'm glad nobody put those people off for looking at the under lining thrusts of that genre.

[Just Bill]

Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but I continue to see journalism, criticism, and reviews as three separate things.  As Chris said, there isn't that much news to report and what might exist - I don't think an audience exists for it.  I know I don't care.  I'm interested in reviews for the most part, and criticism on a select few works that warrant it.  Asterios Polyp warrants it.  Hawkeye and Mockingbird #1 does not.  (But I'd read a review.)

[Just Bill]

Everyone saying "there isn't anything to say about mainstream comics" are not only selling mainstream comics short, but also selling short the potential of writers to develop in-depth stories that exist out there about the mainstream stuff.

There is a lot of stuff someone could say about Funhome or Chris Ware's stuff, because it's aiming for that zone. However,you only need to look at someone like Geoff Klock or Murd (of CGS) to see where you can find critical analysis of many mainstream books. Murd wrote his thesis on Crisis of Infinite Earths, and I would just venture to guess that paper is as well thought out, and intellectually stimulating as anything anyone could write about an indie book. Geoff Klock wrote a whole book on superhero comics that I would say the same thing about.

Sure, I might be talking more about critical analysis than journalism, but I think it still fits. Just because you or I aren't smart enough to see all the dots, doesn't mean they aren't there.

CoIE is what I would consider a high watermark of the monthly superhero genre though... not the top of the heap to be sure, but not the middle of the barrel or lower either.  How many issues of EXTREME JUSTICE from the nineties warrant critical analysis?  Sure, you could do a thoughtful analysis of the entire series and how it stands as a typical book of its time... but each and every issue as they came out on a monthly basis?  Not only would that have been overkill, but it would have been akin to dissecting and analyzing Citizen Kane as you watched it for the first time. 

[NeverWanderer (Joey Cruz)]

Everyone saying "there isn't anything to say about mainstream comics" are not only selling mainstream comics short, but also selling short the potential of writers to develop in-depth stories that exist out there about the mainstream stuff.

There is a lot of stuff someone could say about Funhome or Chris Ware's stuff, because it's aiming for that zone. However,you only need to look at someone like Geoff Klock or Murd (of CGS) to see where you can find critical analysis of many mainstream books. Murd wrote his thesis on Crisis of Infinite Earths, and I would just venture to guess that paper is as well thought out, and intellectually stimulating as anything anyone could write about an indie book. Geoff Klock wrote a whole book on superhero comics that I would say the same thing about.

Sure, I might be talking more about critical analysis than journalism, but I think it still fits. Just because you or I aren't smart enough to see all the dots, doesn't mean they aren't there.

I think horror movies are a lot like comic books. They're looked down upon by a certain group of folks, and largely viewed as disposable schlocky entertainment, yet there is a wealth of content out there that explores the greater themes of horror, ideas like the survivor girl, how the movies reflect our fears at given time (atomic age = overgrown bugs and aliens, red scare = body snatcher movies), etc. I'm glad nobody put those people off for looking at the under lining thrusts of that genre.

Very well said. This is largely how I feel.

[Wood]

These arguments for "what kind of critical analysis is there to be had for New Avengers/Extreme Justice/etc..." are missing the mark. If YOU are happy with the state of comics blogging/news/journalism/analysis, cool. Who can argue that? What Bendis is saying is that the signal to noise ratio of stuff that's downright useless (copy/paste) or overly opinionated without any kind of context (many blogs/forums) drowns out the critical or thought provoking analysis that might be out there.

[Sweet_Christmas]

These arguments for "what kind of critical analysis is there to be had for New Avengers/Extreme Justice/etc..." are missing the mark. If YOU are happy with the state of comics blogging/news/journalism/analysis, cool. Who can argue that? What Bendis is saying is that the signal to noise ratio of stuff that's downright useless (copy/paste) or overly opinionated without any kind of context (many blogs/forums) drowns out the critical or thought provoking analysis that might be out there.

I think your on the money with the signal to noise ratio aspect.   I think their is something unique about comic book readers.  We seem to have real need to be heard in some form even if what we have to say "is  downright useless (copy/paste) or overly opinionated without any kind of context (many blogs/forums)"  but we say it anyway.   Just go to i-tunes and compare the number of comic book podcast to movie podcasts.    We like to have our say even if we haven't put any thought into it.   

Some where along the way volume took precedence over quality.  10 post about nothing is apparently better than one well thought out post

[Dave A]

I think horror movies are a lot like comic books. They're looked down upon by a certain group of folks, and largely viewed as disposable schlocky entertainment, yet there is a wealth of content out there that explores the greater themes of horror, ideas like the survivor girl, how the movies reflect our fears at given time (atomic age = overgrown bugs and aliens, red scare = body snatcher movies), etc. I'm glad nobody put those people off for looking at the under lining thrusts of that genre.

This is a great point.

Does every issue of a comic -- essentially a chapter in a larger work, for the most part -- deserve in-depth critical analysis? Probably not.

But Bendis never says "I want essays about every single mainstream comic book that gets published." There are deeper themes to be explored. For instance, what would a comparison of the careers and oeuvre of Geoff Johns and Brian Bendis tell us not just about them, but about the comics buying public? They currently being the two most popular writers for the two most popular publishers, it might be interesting to examine what it is about their work as a whole that people latched onto.

It might also be worth examining the work of Bendis as a whole across titles. What themes are there to be found? How has he changed as an artist? How has his work influenced other writers, the mainstream, comics as a whole? What do we learn when we compare Millar and Hitch's take on the Fantastic Four to John Hickman's, or to John Byrne's?

Does Nightmare on Elm Street require the same level of analysis as Citizen Kane? Probably not... that doesn't mean there isn't anything there worth examining. If we truly believe that mainstream comics are just creators blindly mashing corporate properties together like children let loose in the world's coolest toybox -- that these comics are meaningless fluff that tell us nothing about ourselves, that the creators invest nothing of themselves in, that are meant solely to mildly stimulate certain nostalgic ganglia for 5 seconds before we move on to the next shiny object, and that's all that they accomplish -- why on Earth would any of us bother to read them?

[Chris Campbell]

These arguments for "what kind of critical analysis is there to be had for New Avengers/Extreme Justice/etc..." are missing the mark. If YOU are happy with the state of comics blogging/news/journalism/analysis, cool. Who can argue that? What Bendis is saying is that the signal to noise ratio of stuff that's downright useless (copy/paste) or overly opinionated without any kind of context (many blogs/forums) drowns out the critical or thought provoking analysis that might be out there.

In that sense, Bendis is probably right.  

And if that was his only point, then I'm guilty of poor reading comprehension.   

[darrell]

Yeah, and The Comics Journal is what we have.

People criticize TCJ because it focuses on non-capes. That goes back the the debate that there isn't anything in mainstream comics to really comment on anymore. That leads us to the only news in the comics "we" read being the dirty laundry kind.

Seriously, what kind of in-depth coverage can we give to New Avengers?

I dont even touch TCJ because its not a COMICS journal if they dont cover all types of comics.

[darrell]

You can analyze "popcorn" comics just like you can analyze big blockbuster films. There are probably some things you can say about the first run of New Avengers. I know you can write some deep shit about Final Crisis, there are even themes that you can debate in Blackest Night. It's also equal in saying that some indie work or mature themed things also isn't worth deep analysis other than what is on the page.

you get all the good karma for saying this brother 

[Kenney]

Does Nightmare on Elm Street require the same level of analysis as Citizen Kane? Probably not... that doesn't mean there isn't anything there worth examining. If we truly believe that mainstream comics are just creators blindly mashing corporate properties together like children let loose in the world's coolest toybox -- that these comics are meaningless fluff that tell us nothing about ourselves, that the creators invest nothing of themselves in, that are meant solely to mildly stimulate certain nostalgic ganglia for 5 seconds before we move on to the next shiny object, and that's all that they accomplish -- why on Earth would any of us bother to read them?

I could just lick your face...if you're into that sort of thing, give me a call. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the first dudes to say "They're just comics.", but I'm always surprised and delighted when someone is able to comment on the medium, mainstream or otherwise, in a way that makes me look at books in a new light.

[Sweet_Christmas]

I dont even touch TCJ because its not a COMICS journal if they dont cover all types of comics.

It makes so much sense to ignore 80% of the genre.