11 O'Clock Comics Episode 18

[templar]

Hey sorry to waste your booze dude. but glad to bring a smile.

[EdHoughton]

Great show this week.  Just listened to it in the car and continued my thoughts from listening to Mr. K's statement and the subsequent interview with Mr. Bendis.

I am not sure who I agree with (and that includes you guys). 

I think perhaps that the main problem is that Kirkman needed to say it in a little bit less of a moaning way.

 I think that Kirkman did speak sense on a number of matters.  Not least of all who is getting into comics these days.

I have an 11 year old son.  I am split from his mother and have him most weekends.  I have to say that even at the age of eleven he finds the Marvel Adventures a bit childish and only really wants to read 'proper' DC and Marvel.  His eyes always light up when I pick him up and there is a new trade for him to read on the car seat.

My son is a smart kid and really relishes learning about characters he hasn't seen before (much like we all were I am sure when we were his age).

This of course leads us to the access issues.  When do kids actually even get to see comics.

Personally when he and I walked out of Iron Man or Dark Knight we would have loved to see a table from the LCS selling trades and comics about who we had just seen.  In fact I went with him and 6 of his friends to see Iron man.  He and I were the only ones who read comics and we had to go to the local bookshop to get the other boys some trades cos they loved the movie so much.  (and to be honest there were not enough trades on the shelves to go round).

My son read 52 in his words 'a million times.'

Kids are smart.  All we need is to get the comics in their hands. 

Anyway that blah is out the way!!!

Great show.  And great opinions.

[templar]

Great show this week.  Just listened to it in the car and continued my thoughts from listening to Mr. K's statement and the subsequent interview with Mr. Bendis.

I am not sure who I agree with (and that includes you guys). 

I think perhaps that the main problem is that Kirkman needed to say it in a little bit less of a moaning way.

 I think that Kirkman did speak sense on a number of matters.  Not least of all who is getting into comics these days.

I have an 11 year old son.  I am split from his mother and have him most weekends.  I have to say that even at the age of eleven he finds the Marvel Adventures a bit childish and only really wants to read 'proper' DC and Marvel.  His eyes always light up when I pick him up and there is a new trade for him to read on the car seat.

My son is a smart kid and really relishes learning about characters he hasn't seen before (much like we all were I am sure when we were his age).

This of course leads us to the access issues.  When do kids actually even get to see comics.

Personally when he and I walked out of Iron Man or Dark Knight we would have loved to see a table from the LCS selling trades and comics about who we had just seen.  In fact I went with him and 6 of his friends to see Iron man.  He and I were the only ones who read comics and we had to go to the local bookshop to get the other boys some trades cos they loved the movie so much.  (and to be honest there were not enough trades on the shelves to go round).

My son read 52 in his words 'a million times.'

Kids are smart.  All we need is to get the comics in their hands. 

Anyway that blah is out the way!!!

Great show.  And great opinions.

I hope for the same with my son. Sounds like you have a great thing going there. My kids only 5 years old and already he's looking over my shoulder at what I'm reading so I've had to start reading House of Mystery in my break at work.
He wants to hear about key events in the lives of these characters and not a mixed bag, watered down semi re-telling done with no guns and no passion. Yes, he's only 5 but do I really want to patronise him with these titles about a brief tussle in a warehouse between spidey and the sinister six where no-one lands a punch and the cops cart them all away as if its the end of a scooby episode? He knows there are great stories out there and I'm not gonna deprive him of the death of Gwen Stacy or the Venom saga from an early age because in the end he'll thank me for not giving him the fluff.
When all is said and done most guys at the football games go due to some influence form their dads or brothers. Its the same with comics. Only with comics its just like chris said "you cant try to be cool" kids will see through that. So I guess its down to us fanboy dads to just have the books available and be ready with the answers to the questions in order to keep this love of comics going on and on and round and round. wow that was good for me. I can crack on with work now.. Oh no wait I've got an issue of Trinity to get through.

[EdHoughton]

Exactly right about the football game comment.

Nice one.

[templar]

Exactly right about the football game comment.

Nice one.

Thanks man

And then in the same breath I've got to say that I grew up in a house without football or comics but somehow they got in. Robin III cry of the huntress was my first book. Hey the covers had a sliding bit of card that made the image move. Eye candy!!! 

[Sausage King]

Lots of thoughts and opinions. I'll try not to ramble.
  To think that the big 2 are not trying to get new readers is kind of silly. They don't want to go out of business. Even lumber companies plant new trees so they have work in the future.
  When I was a wee lad there was nothing that the publishers did that got me to read their books. It was my brother in-law. I would go to his house and read his Heavy Metal magazines. Then one day he brought to me a suitcase full of his old comics. After reading all those issues I ordered a grab-bag from out of the back of one of the books. About this time a Geppi's opened in the next town over, and I started a subscription service. I guess I'm just saying that if you are concerned about the future of the industry then try to do something on a personal level. If you don't know any children to influence, give away comics for halloween, or donate some to a local school or hospital childrens ward.
  Nice to see Norton here. I am a fan of the Crankcast.
  As for following creators from their Big2 books over to their creator owned books....probably not me. I read comics mostly for the characters/subject matter. There are exceptions of course. I'll buy anything by Barry Smith, Jim Starlin, Richard Corben, Tim Vigil, P. Craig Russell and my current guilty pleasure Ed Benes. But for the most part I don't really care who writes/draws the stuff on my pull list. I'm gonna buy Conan no matter who writes it.
  No disrespect to the other guys but I have to mostly agree with Wood on the main subject of the episode.
  I'm losing my train of thought. Lots going on in the background here, so I'm gonna stop now.
  Just one last thing.
  BUY WITCHBLADE!!

[templar]

I'm home from my gig, drinking a Vesper martini, perusing the 11 O' forum, just minding my own bidniz and you gotta go n' make me shoot gin out ma nose!   

Bravo.

My guilt has grown, was it expensive Gin?

[Dallan]

My guilt has grown, was it expensive Gin?

Bombay Sapphire London (appropriately) Dry Gin.  It's not cheap, but don't sweat it.  Even the stuff that came out my nose I didn't let go to waste.   

[zack kruse]

Really good episode guys. Lots of really thoughtful points on both sides of the discussion. Yeesh...where do I start? Let me collect my thoughts and I'll post back

[Alec B.]

My son read 52 in his words 'a million times.'

Kids are smart.  All we need is to get the comics in their hands. 

I totally agree. 52 was my first DC read, and that book contains plenty of continuity for the hardcore DC fan. Yeah, at times I was confused, but I still enjoyed it very much overall plus it made me want to go back and read Infinite Crisis. I pieced the puzzle together and finally understood it. I really don't see continuity as a barrier for new readers. The overall interest they hold in reading something will make the figure it out and understand it.

As for the arguement of someone seeing The Dark Knight:

Chris - You state that if a non-comic fan saw that film and saw this month's issue of Batman that they would be completely lost and dis-interested. That may be true: Morrison's run is confusing for those who have been reading Batman long term. Then you say that there are too many different Batman collections and stories for an outsider to sift through if they were to walk into a book store. Isn't it our job as comic fans to guide and teach the outsiders? Instead of letting outsiders trying to make their way in alone, why don't we as the fans who have already discovered this medium help the newcomers? We should be there to suggest and help them sift through the stories instead of leaving them out in the cold. The best way to spread comics is to communicate them. If we geeks don't speak up about what we know; then, the knowledge we hold will die away with us instead of being passed on.

I agree on the point that distribution is the one of the main problems in the lack of mainstream attention comics hold. Most LCSs are hard to find or even intimidating for a newcomer.

As for a teenage readership:
We need to find a way to make comics cool for the mainstream. Back in the day there were limited forms of entertainment to preoccupy the teenage mind. Today, there are many things. Teens of today would much rather spead their time on the internet, texting, gaming, etc than reading. I agree with what Vince said: if you can make comics a digital thing were teens can drop a buck, download a file, and IM it to a friend or post it on Myspace comics will catch on much quicker. Teens of today are all about the now. There is no patience. All the forms of entertainment I listed above are instant, when comics may take a trip to the book store/LCS plus the time to read it. Then, if you add in the fact that most complete stories take 6 months to complete with arcs. There is no instant gratification in comics, at least, story wise.

Just some intial thoughts. Great show as always, guys! 

[David]

Hmmm, wonder how the Kirkman plan handles cases where writers need other writers to help write the stories? 

I've been thinking about this.  I tend to think Kirkman was only talking to writers.

Those of that tried to read those early Image issues (or Todd's adjective-less Spider-Man title), know that, at times, artists need a hand telling their stories.  Jim Lee and Whilce Portacio had Brandon Choi, Liefeld had Hank Kanalz, Eric Silvestri wrote the first Cyberforce mini and co-wrote the early issues of the ongoing... Not everyone is Frank Miller or John Byrne.  (And I think that's why the Ultraverse had better stories than what we were getting from Image.)

Is it Kirkman's Walking Dead or Kirkman's and Moore's Walking Dead?  Is it Millar's Wanted?  Rucka's Queen and Country?  Ed Brubaker's Criminal?

But again Kirkman stuck with his creations, took a gamble, and it's paying off.  If a creator has something original inside of them, by all means, put it out there, making sure you own it.  Again, if they want to.

But if a creator wants his creation to play in a bigger sandbox, who are we to wag our fingers?  And how do we know that David Michelinie didn't receive any money for Spider-Man 3 or Iron Man since these movies featured Venom and Jim Rhodes?  I'm pretty sure Denny and Neal were compensated with Batman Begins.  Yeah, I know, it only took decades for that happen, but how long should a creator wait to see if his or her creation makes it huge?

I guess not long, if you look at the Image model with Spawn, Savage Dragon, and WildC.A.T.s all made into cartoons soon after their series started.  And Eastman and Laird only had to scrap by for a few years before the cartoon took their creation to heights they never imagined.

This is what happens when I start typing a thought, leave to cut the grass, and try to remember where I was going...

[Wraithmaker]

Still listening to the ep. Great stuff. Ian and my cohost Juan have a spirited talk also over at Geeks Unite! (plug plug)

I wanted to clarify Wood's statements on Midtown, as he's probably there once a week and I'm there more frequently.

I would say a good number of the people who step through our doors are tourists, of various ages. Then we have regulars: guys 20 - 60 and a handful of women the same age.

There ARE teens and kids with their parents who come in for the kids! I promise you I'm not making that up. Wood's seen me handle these people. I would say that this demographic makes up about 20 - 30% of the weekly foot traffic.

My ultimate plan to save comics is to have myself cloned, and have each clone run the graphic novel/comic book section of every Borders, Barnes & Noble and any other book store that sells said graphic novels/comic books.

Can you imagine the sales my clones could generate? The good will that would extend to the world would be enormous!

C'mon science, CLONE ME!

What will the real me do? Write that kung-fu/pulp adventure/superhero/fantasy/science fiction series I've planned for the past 5 years.

And you will all buy. All. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!

[EdHoughton]

I tend to agree that Kirkman's diatribe was for full time writers and not artists (in the main).  However I worry about the artists that are brought on board these indie projects.  The writers may be comfortable enough financially to take the brunt of this (and also possibly be writing for the big 2 or reaping the benefits from past product).  But where does this leave the artist.  Even a fast artists can pretty much only put out one issue a month.  What if the new project fails.

Anyway only a thought.  I am sure that this will run and run and I am sure than this 'search for answers' is good for the business.  But (and only a small but) when can we get back to talking about the stories and not the politics?

I have to say that I listen to 5 or 6 weekly comics podcasts and 11 o'clock is the best of the lot and especially on this subject.

How about we put Starlin in charge and he can slice a few ankles (Hostel style) of anyone who stands up to use the john or moan about something (there is a rumour that he carries a blade and is a hardcore English soccer fan!!!!)

 

[Papercut]

(Finally) Finished the last part of the episode and... 

 

[David]

(Finally) Finished the last part of the episode and... 

 

Wait, what happened at the end?  I was there and I'm not sure I know what's sad.  Or how much of it is...

[VinceB]

Wait, what happened at the end?  I was there and I'm not sure I know what's sad.  Or how much of it is...

Probably Chris' comments on manga.

[Dallan]

Wait, what happened at the end?  I was there and I'm not sure I know what's sad.  Or how much of it is...

It brought tears to my eyes too. 
            
Because David wasn't in a very talkative mood.

I think you said less in a 2 1/2 hour episode than you normally do in a one hour show.

[aSh]

Good Episode Gentlemen... a couple of items:

Here is something to think about.... I am a 23 year old looser who never had comics as a child.  I buy comics for me. I have no kids and could care less about kids.  I would love for comics to remain stong for years after I am in the ground, but I don't really know what I can do to help besides what I do now, buy comics: a ton of them every month. I found comics in College. Not as a child.

Image has a problem with their current model that is very different from the heyday of Image in the 90's.  They have very few HUGE superstars to sell books. People bought superstar artist's books like McFarlene, Jim Lee, and Erik Larson.  They don't have that many stars at Image on a regular basis that were as popular as those creators where at the time they were selling big time. Kirkmans call to jump ship could just be a way to plead for superstars to come to Image who could sell books by name. Image can't even get Warren Ellis to do more Fell, let alone get a big star like who can move books by name alone other than Kirkman.

That said big props to Robert for the call to arms for Creator own work. I sick of crappy spider-man-boy  stories and justice loosers of america. (ok I love those books but:) Those books will always be there, but books like Fear Agent are an ass hair away from cancelation. More peole need to support thoose books. Hopefully Kirkman didn't alienate too many creators and fans with his manifesto.

So, I still will buy what I buy, the whole thing seems to be an Image grab, and more power to Kirkman for having to balls to stand up and spit in every ones face.


In my life I have learned that when you do something like Kirkman did you usually say it in a way that pisses people off and create more problems than you solve....


but now I am with Chris, I don't want to talk about this anymore.

[aSh]

Chris is Right. Manga Sucks.

[WetRats]

Great episode, gents. (and Vince)

Scott Kurtz weighed in on the Kirkman Flap™ today, and pretty much nailed my opinion.

In defense of Robert Kirkman
August 21st, 2008
Full disclosure: Robert Kirkman is my friend. I consider him to be a close friend. So anything I say in his defense will and should be taken in this context.

Last week Robert posted a video editorial; a call to arms if you will. He offered his thoughts on how to bring more life into the comic book industry and possibly save it from a even downward spinning market. His idea was twofold:

1) Top creators at Marvel and DC should think seriously about their future after the market no longer considers them popular. They should start investing their creative energies into creator owned properties now before Marvel, DC and the market decide their time in the spotlight has passed. Graduate from a successful freelance career at the big two into creator owned work WHILE you’re hot.

2) Marvel and DC start making their comics more accessible with less continuity and event-oriented gimmicks in order to remain competitive with this new crop of creator-owned comics. New creators can step up and seize the opportunity to transform Spider-Man, Batman and Superman into books that are more viable for younger generations to get invested in.

This could lead to a reinvigorated comic book industry with new comics, new ideas, and more importantly…new readers. A lot of people are responding to this on comic book news sites and they’re taking Robert to task. Brian Michael Bendis had this to say:

“I understand that I am one of the very few people that can do creator owned work and do mainstream work and find some success creatively in both fields…but having experienced what I have through comics, and being a little older than Robert, I can look back and can say at this level of play that I’m at and Robert is at, to ignore the fact that part of your audience came from Marvel is a mistake I hope he doesn’t learn the bad way.”

I see lines being drawn here between freelancers and independent creators and it really frustrates me because I personally don’t see that as the issue at hand. The issue at hand is this: for the industry to survive, its creators have to be able to survive. The heart of this industry is making it a viable career choice for the creative men and women who fuel it. Personally, I’m not 100% sure that Marvel or DC are the best choices of a retirement plan.

When Mike Wieringo died, he was working for Marvel. He had one creator owned project under his belt and wished to return to that world. But he didn’t know how to make that transition without dipping into savings that he wanted to keep for a rainy day. But every time we talked, he would tell me how he wished he was doing what I was doing, and I would tell him that was crazy. He was drawing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four. Who cares about my stupid cartoon. But Mike got it and he taught me that the real value of my work was that I owned it and steered my own ship.

For god’s sake, we start charitable organizations to provide for creators, giants in our industry, who have been abandoned by the market. Think about how it ended for Dave Cockrum. Bringing Storm, Colossus and Nightcrawler to life did not provide for him in the end. Once you as a creator, have used up all of your draw and panache with the market at large, once you stop being the hot thing, Marvel and DC will cut you loose and forget about you forever. They will move on to the next hot creator and they won’t give two shits about how you make your next house payment.

Right now, the only real retirement plan that creators have are their own properties. In 20 or 30 years let’s compare how Mike Mignola and an equally popular company man without an established creator owned title are doing. I promise you the company man will be struggling and Mignola will be sitting pretty on Hellboy residuals.

Certainly, life as a freelancer for Marvel or DC can be a good and rewarding one. Obviously it’s possible to freelance and pay for your own insurance and plan for the future with savings. But how can advising creators to establish their own creator-owned properties NOW while they’re popular be consider bad or petty advice? How can anyone shit on that?

I think it’s a pretty solid sentiment.