The Bullpen

[Dave A]

If only I had a womb! It would be filled with Eric Powell's babies!

Put that on the front cover of the next Goon trade, mo'fucker!

Kirkman Manifesto gets a hip remix...

[whirlwindx]

That's it I'm dropping all my Marvel and DC books 

[Dave A]

Ok... as much as I thought the video was hilarious and like encouraging more creator-owned content, here's how I see it from my perspective as a buyer:

• Most people who buy and read comics through the Diamond distribution system read Marvel and DC superhero books to some degree. I would guess somewhere between 90-95% of regular comic shop buyers buy at least one Marvel and/or DC superhero comic. That may even be a low guesstimate.
• A significantly smaller percentage of those buyers also read creator owned books to some degree
• Very, very few people only read creator owned comics
• If I were to change my personal buying habits to only include creator owned comics, I would not be buying any more creator owned comics than I already am; I would instead simply be giving a lot less of my money to Marvel and DC superhero comics. This is because a) a lot of creator owned content I'm simply not interested in because it is derivative of Marvel and DC (or some other pop culture trend like zombies or vampires or ninjas or whatever), and b) the amount of creator owned output that is not only introduced but manages to sustain itself through all of a dozen issues is extremely limited in this market, meaning the handful of creator owned books I try and like enough to continue buying usually stop producing. Example: The Goon or Billy the Kid, both of which have seemingly been replaced by a Godzilla comic as far as where I can go to get my monthly Eric Powell fix.
• Giving less of my money to Marvel and DC superhero comics would therefore mean giving a lot less of my money to the overall comics industry, which is bad for both retailers and publishers

After watching that video, I briefly considered what my buying habits would be like if I were to drop all Marvel and DC superhero comics from my pull list, and that's what I came up with. I think that, as things stand, I would simply be spending a lot less money on comics overall, not more money on creator owned comics. I never pass up creator owned books that look even remotely interesting to me. I very well may not represent the average fan, however.

So, my personal pledge (which is all I can promise!) to creators is: If you make it -- and you make it well -- I will buy.

[Farrell]

If only I had a womb! It would be filled with Eric Powell's babies!

Satan's sodomy babies!

[Farrell]

I very well may not represent the average fan, however.

You really, really don't, bless you.

[GLewis]

I don't think it's the lack of a creator-owned company that is the problem.

Image in the 90s was successful because they took guys known (& popular)  to super-hero comics readers and they went off and created their own super-heroes.

It's anyone's guess on how Image would have done had they created mysteries, westerns, comedies, slice of life, horror, etc. instead of more big muscly super-heroes.

I totally agree, it wouldn't be as big as Image coming out of the gate. I wonder if it wouldn't cause a ripple among comic buyers, that would help to sell a relatively good amount of books.

I feel a little guilty, posting in this thread. I've never read an issue of The Goon.

[Dave A]

Satan's sodomy babies!

Who leaked my blueprint and dungeon maps?!  

I feel a little guilty, posting in this thread. I've never read an issue of The Goon.

Nahhh... I don't think the point is that you have to buy Powell's creator owned books, just that it'd be nice if you were buying some (whatever they may be).

That said... I can't recommend The Goon strongly enough. If you liked the video, The Goon is pretty much that in comic form. With some of the most amazing art you're ever going to see, to boot.

One example of many:

[steve bryant]

Shouldn't that editor on the phone be wearing an ill-fitting chapeau?     

[jacobi]

I feel a little guilty, posting in this thread. I've never read an issue of The Goon.

I sometimes feel guilty, period, because I don't read The Goon OR Hellboy. Isn't it illegal to be a comic fan, who has diverse tastes, but not read either of these? Not only don't I read them, but I never have. What!?!? Craziness!!!! I know.

And just to make Steve think I'm the lowest of the low, I haven't read any Rocketeer either.

[billydx24]

Hey Eric, your 3 issue arc on Action Comics was awesome! Your art is amazing. So shut the f@*% up. And go cash another check you got for your comic being in the backgroung of Superbad

[KW!!]

Lots of thoughts on this. Is it preaching to the choir? Maybe it's more like preaching to the congregation that seems to have fallen asleep.

First off - bravo for a well put together, funny and thought provoking video. I clicked on the link expecting another Kirkman manifesto which had all the polish and production value of an Al Qaeda tape. This was a lot of fun to watch. I mean, the coarseness will definitely turn some people off, but at least it gets peoples' attention.

Now for the actual message, I find myself reacting on two fronts. One as a customer, and one as a creator.

'Act 1' (I guess you'd call it), could potentially be a real eye opener for fans. Critical darlings and award recipients of the indie world aren't able to pay the bills with the amazing work they've done. I know this already, but I haven't known it for that long. This will be news to some and that kind of transparency is important.

'Act 2' almost kinda lost me because even though I ride hard for the indies, I don't really see The Big 2 as the bad guys. Still, it's worth noting that it did expose a truth about the plight of the comic book creator. If anyone took offense on behalf of superhero comic creators, well it's worth noting that in this particular example, the comic creator had no desire to write superheroes. I doubt this is how many (if any) creators actually literally feel about taking work from the major publishers. It's an exaggeration. Powell is, after all, a cartoonist. I laughed but this part started to lose me on a philosophical level.

'Act 3', where Eric actually starts talking, got me back on board as it took a longer reaching look at the comic landscape and reminded us that corporations do not love comics like creators love comics. I felt less like he was attacking the big publishers, and more like he was trying to push comicdom towards more sustainable ideas. It really was the comic book equivalent of An Inconvenient Truth in some ways. Only instead of big oil, it's big comic publishers. And instead of green energy, it's creator owned comics. And instead of global warming, it's a superhero sodomizing you on the kitchen table while your family watches in horror.

I already read them, I already make them, and I already am lucky enough to frequent shops that stock them. But this video made me want to do more. Maybe allotting more of my comic budget to indies, or allotting more of my tweeting/blogging budget to spreading the word on the titles I enjoy. Every little bit helps!

Something to think about, at least.

[lugaru]

Already most of what I buy is non DC or Marvel, but I'm a minority as stated by his figures. I think something we can do is gift a lot of creator owned shit to other people, since you kind of have to give presents on birthdays and holidays anyway. I gave out about 15 graphic novels this year, and only a small number of them where Marvel (which I got in blind grab bags of marvel trades).



That said I hope Crossgen opens the doors for Marvel to do more genre books outside of heroes.

[BobBretall]

Shouldn't that editor on the phone be wearing an ill-fitting chapeau?     

Ha!   Karma to you Steve....

[BobBretall]

or (2) people that already buy comics but only get Big 2 books.  Those people probably like capes and cowls.  So trying to pitch them by bagging on their favorite is unlikely to win them over.  Try some other method that does not put them on the defensive.

I didn't take this at all as an attack on readers, though I can see people who tend to be really defensive about their hobby that is generally ridiculed by others as "kid stuff" would go immediately on the defensive.

There's nothing wrong with liking super-hero books.   I love them myself.   Doesn't mean I don't ALSO like other stuff.  I got ZERO from the video that you should buy no super-heroes, just that you should try some creator owned stuff too.

Also, since the Big 2 do have a stranglehold on the direct comics market, their predominant focus on supers does crowd out variety.   In my travels over the past several years, I have set foot into well over 100 comics shops.  Believe me, people who are lucky enough to shop at an LCS with a good selection of Indies are fortunate.  I'd say about 25-20% of the shops I visited have pretty good Indie selections, maybe 10% have what I'd consider excellent coverage of Indies.

The shops with poor coverage of Indies carry what make up 80% of comic sales.  Marvel/DC and some licensed stuff from a few other publishers.

What is really at issue is that MOST comic readers won't try a creator-owned book if they never get a chance to see it on a rack and check it out.   This is not the fault of the readers.

Anyway, I personally like messages laced with humor, and this one was pretty darn funny satire.  I think it's hitting the "defensive button" with folks because they recognize the truth under the humor.

[BobBretall]

I totally agree, it wouldn't be as big as Image coming out of the gate. I wonder if it wouldn't cause a ripple among comic buyers, that would help to sell a relatively good amount of books.

I feel a little guilty, posting in this thread. I've never read an issue of The Goon.

I think (like most other comics publishers in the back of previews) it would not even hit the rack in 60-70% of comic shops in the US.

BTW, nothing wrong with not reading the Goon.  It's definitely not a book for everyone, comes out infrequently, and most comic shops don't carry it anyway.   I think the plea here is for shops to order/stock some creator owned books and for fans to try one every now & again IN ADDITION to the Marvel/DC super-hero stuff.

I think the snipes at Marvel/DC are because when there is a Marvel logo (albeit in the Icon imprint) on something like Scarlet or Kick-Ass, 20x the number of people will see it and check it out than if it was from a publisher in the back half of Previews.  The same thing goes for a DC/Vertigo book like Northlanders or Scalped or Fables.

[BobBretall]

'Act 2' almost kinda lost me because even though I ride hard for the indies, I don't really see The Big 2 as the bad guys. Still, it's worth noting that it did expose a truth about the plight of the comic book creator. If anyone took offense on behalf of superhero comic creators, well it's worth noting that in this particular example, the comic creator had no desire to write superheroes. I doubt this is how many (if any) creators actually literally feel about taking work from the major publishers. It's an exaggeration. Powell is, after all, a cartoonist. I laughed but this part started to lose me on a philosophical level.

Whether they want to do super-heroes or not, I think what some of these creators REALLY want is to make a decent living off of comics, and they see doing an established Marvel/DC book a much better route to making a living that continuing to toil away on the creator owned books that get little shelf space in comics shops.

I immediately thought of the difference in sales between Rick Remender's Marvel work on The Punisher & X-Force vs. the sales on Last Days of American Crime, or Fear Agent, or Strange Girl, or Sea of Red all of which were excellent.

OR Jonathan Hickman's sales on Fantastic Four or SHIELD vs his creator owned Nightly News or Red Mass for Mars or Pax Romana.

How many people even SAW these now-popular Marvel creator's early creator-owned works at the LCS?  If you did, you're lucky, you have a "Top Third" comic shop.

[S. Earl]

All I have to add is that the Goon is the beat book not named Fear Agent. Buy it.

[the other mike]

i'm all for diversity, but after watching the video (which was fucking awesome) i'm kinda guilty i'm focusing on a superhero story rather than something non-superhero.

powell makes it sound so "romantic", and yet so punk, i can't help but feel a little peer pressure. (by romantic, i mean the way westerns are "romantic".)


-mike

[Wormworth]

There are a lot of great independent/ creator-owned comics but it takes a lot more effort from the comic reader to find them. Of course the comics podcasts and comics blogs/sites can help, but those are for the initiated, and even those concentrate to a large part in mainstream geekery, pondering on the new costume of Aqua Man or the latest resurrection and analyzing Blackest Night to the death.  

Powell says that the people in the Disney/Warner don't care a shit about comic books - may be true, but the editors and creators to a large extent do. There are great and personal creators, with inventive story-telling and ideas, but if you look at it a step further away, it is quite derivative. Don't get me wrong, I love the superhero continuity, the weird world that evolves over time - but at the same time I hate when it's devolved in re-launches, like Heroic Age, and originality of stories is replaced with constant killing/resurrection game.

The problem with independent comics is that there is mostly  no salary for the creators to make the comics, only the hope of back-end pay, and that makes creating them unsustainable, and mostly extra work after a day job which may either show in quality or frequency. That takes amazing determination and passion from the creators. Some succeed in time to make a decent income doing those, but that's a rare bunch - breathing rarefied air, as Bendis has referred to his own situation. I'd rather Bendis, Hickman, Brubaker and Aaron etc. could work on their own projects, but they can churn out some entertaining and engaging work on the mainstream arena, too.  

I don't know if Powell considers Icon, Vertigo and Wildstorm non-independent, non-creator-owned, but Northlanders, Scalped, Fables, Sweet Tooth, Kabuki, Criminal, Powers etc. in my understanding are by and large creator-owned and creator-driven and quite diverse in subject matter. Slowly, the Big Two have spread a little to other genres, and I believe that will continue. Image, IDW, Radical and Dark Horse are paving the way, in addition to Fantagraphics, Drawn&Quarterly, Pantheon etc in the more "art" or "alternative" side.

It is weird that despite the media focus on comics through comic-based movies and widely recognized people like Stephen King and Gerard Way working on them, there isn't more of a buzz in drawing more people into comics.

[Dean S.]

O

• If I were to change my personal buying habits to only include creator owned comics, I would not be buying any more creator owned comics than I already am; I would instead simply be giving a lot less of my money to Marvel and DC superhero comics. This is because a) a lot of creator owned content I'm simply not interested in because it is derivative of Marvel and DC (or some other pop culture trend like zombies or vampires or ninjas or whatever), and b) the amount of creator owned output that is not only introduced but manages to sustain itself through all of a dozen issues is extremely limited in this market, meaning the handful of creator owned books I try and like enough to continue buying usually stop producing. Example: The Goon or Billy the Kid, both of which have seemingly been replaced by a Godzilla comic as far as where I can go to get my monthly Eric Powell fix.

I'm kinda like this too.  I go all the way through Previews and/or the DCBS site and I buy what I want.  I'm not chopping creator-owned or small press stuff off the list for budgetary reasons.

BUT....what I would be interested in is IF Big 2 Superhero Comics cut back, what would the creators do?  If you took away Secret Avengers would Bendis and Deodato would they make do some creator-owned project that didn't feature spandex?  Some of the creators would drift into non-comics mediums, but some would do more creator owned projects.

And...I think some of this is going to change anyway with the advent of digital comics over the next 5 years.  I think that this will lead to more comic-content being consumed, but less of it is going to be super-heroes aimed at 30-45 year old white dudes with nostalgia issues.  

Just taking away the pre-order dynamic will massively change things because you don't have to buy an issue until you are read to read it.  So, every week there will be a title or two that we're downloading as soon as it goes live on Comixology or some other site.  We'll read that, but I wouldn't buy my entire pull list that way.  And by the middle of the afternoon there will be reviews up saying, "This arc of _______ blows and is non essential." and you can just skip that because you didn't pre-order it and you can always get it later if you want to.  The only way the publishers will be able to combat that is to offer subscriptions at a huge discount because otherwise we're not going to be locked in by this pre-order/non-returnable/3-months-early/don't-miss-it crap.

I predict that that dynamic alone is going to massively change the superhero landscape.  We'll still have them, but there will be fewer titles per property, they will be better and they'll "matter" more.  Otherwise we will not download them once the negative reviews start popping up.

So, if us dudes are getting our fix in that new landscape, the publishers and creators will have to figure out what else to do to sell more books and that should mean more titles in other genres, more titles that appeal to women, more titles that appeal to old people, etc.  And, I'd bet lots of creators will love that.

The question will be whether Marvel/DC just kinda let the train smash them or whether they decide to take part in the change.  That's probably part of the reason they're doing those Crossgen titles.