The Monkey Room

[Jay Tomio]

The existence of other attractive people do not detract from the idea that Targaryens definitely were among that group and exotic to boot. The idea is that they aren't hard to look at, exotic, and those traits distinguish them from the peoples they conquered is I think relevant and because of something as base as those traits I think enables something constructive related  to something Wood just said in an unrelated post: 'Mythical". The Targaryens need to be viewed as something not quite like the rest of the families, if for nothing else because they are relatively recent to the continent...and stomped assess with Dragons. They aren't "just another family" in relation to the the idea of marriage with the family, and I think their distinct features are meant or remind or tip us to that. It is interesting that Drogo - who probably could have had anyone - wanted Dany.

It should be noted - and I think you' might agree - that if Rhaegar deposed his father earlier, this might have been squashed. As you conceded, it's not Targaryen rule that the rebellion was about, it was about the crazy acts of one particular man. I think any other "dislike" toward them is no more or less than any other power holder would warrant or merit from those who owe them fealty. The houses aligned against them had recent, personal reasons, I mean literally 3 great houses were forced into it after one act of Aryn calling his banners (due to the heir of the Stormlands and the North being under his protection/his wards). They didn't have much of a choice. It was rebel or die. Early Aerys was also said to be a workable monarch as well.

Also the Tyrells and Dorne. That's not nothing to sneeze out in light of an undecided (well, not to them!) Lannister camp. The Reach is a LARGE population center.

Rhaegar is supposed to have been a very handsome man, yes, but no more so really than Jaime Lannister,

I think perhaps even Cersei would disagree which speaks volumes since any observation on Jamie is linked to her as his twin. There is also her attraction or observation of Auranne Waters later.  For sure Robert and later Renly are both in that crowd as well, but she also spurned Robert and NEVER forgot the idea of her and Rhaegaer. Admittedly we could file this under somebody who really obsesses over slights and what could/should have beens as well. In some measure I think we can view Rhaegar as the ideal of those traits, but the traits themselves are still strong.

All in all though we are debating the difference between degrees of good looking. I'm just saying they are generally good looking cats and disitinctly so--the traits tend to be spoken of as not ugly or negative or ordinary, the way say the "Stark" look might.  Let's not talk more about good looking dudes.  

Wood,

Pretty recent history too. The Targaryen Reign isn't Dunish in length at all! I think that's great because it keeps the past as something relevant. Some of the flashback scenes are among my favorites in the novel and I love how previous generations seem very much alive -- oddly some of my favorite characters aren't even alive in the book's time.

[Jon_Samuelson]

I can get behind that sentiment. 

[Lukeh]

One of my favorite scenes of The series is the flash back / dream / reference of Ned and his seven companions meeting three of the kings guard outside a "fateful tower". The kingsgaurd were Hightower the commander, and two other epic knights.

anyways the three kingsguard are just sitting sharpening there swords waiting. Ned pleads with them and gives them a way out, but the commander just says "We swore an oath". /epic fight.

I know there has been no flash back scenes in the show but damn I hope we get that.

On the rebellion talk. It was really only Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn who Started it. I see it Going down like this:

Areys was mad and sadistic, but no more then some of his line that came before him. That point us made to, that it's a toss of the coin for a tar to be mad or great. Comes with the inbreeding. But it was put up with, " meh what can you do" type of thing. Plus Rheager was going to make a REAL king. And don't forget as well Tywin Lannister had been actually running the realm for 20 years, so things were quite good. Tywin being the cold competent bastard he is.

Then the shit his down with Reagher, Neds sister, brother and father. Now Ned and Robert being best friends, Ned being so honor and duty bound an Robert being so brash and hot headed (also his love for Neds sister, and hence hatred for Rheager) went to war. Arys being who he was was and what he did to Neds brother and father were all the excuse thy needed to rally there bannerman, not thy thy really needed to sway them. Arryn joins because of his connection / affection to Ned and Robert, being somewhat of a father figure to them. Then Ned hastily marrys Catlyn (who was betrothed to his brother) to bring the Tullys and his bannerman into it. The Lannisters stayEd neutral. Right untill the end. If he had sided with the crown things would of went very different.

So the rebellion was only them four houses, the north, stormlands, riverlands and the vale. It all boiled down to Neds sister. Nothing more then a tragic love story (though I will not expand on that in case of it spoiling).

[Jay Tomio]

Yeah that flashback is one of the best scenes in the books and analyzed to death. It's one of the most puzzling yet beautiful moments I've ever read. Love it and think about it damn near daily.

Don't think it had much to with personal beef to begin with at with at all and if it did it wasn't paramount to the idea that they had no choice.  Jon Aryn made the choice to not release Ned and Robert to Aerys. That SINGLE act made War inevitable. Now other causes came, went and perhaps got written down, but if Jon Aryn would have complied with his liege lord's request there would be no war.

Now don't get me wrong, the guy did the honorable and "right" thing, but though many choices would be made later it was his choice, and really his alone that would lead to war. I think the inevitably is perfectly illustrated by the very fact that they didn't know what House Lannister was going t odo (if anything) and the fact that Tywin hadn't taken the field yet and could easily have made this war an afterthought had to be in the back of their minds (a union of Tyrell, Lannister and Dorne is probably insurmountable) - the former two being the true powers in numbers, money, and resources (along with the Hightowers who are bannermen to the Tyrells)

[Lukeh]

I have not done a re-read since Feast came out, so I am struggling to remember details. I do no recall that Ned and Robert were under Aryns care at the time of Neds families death. Also I cannot recall what had happened to Roberts parents? What was his father doing during this? Were they dead? I vaugly recall them being dead from a ship wreck or somthing.

But yes everything you say I agree with and is good points. I was trying to make the point though that the war was thought more on Neds grief and Roberts anger and passion over Neds sister then over any sought of oppression of the masses against the evil dictator sort of thing.

Man I am chopping at the bit for a re - read.

Hey Jay, what are your thoughts on

Jons parentage. Rheager and Neds sister? I think there is no doubt. Which is also ehat I meant about the rebellion being essentially a tragic love story.

[Jay Tomio]

I want to warn people to not read Lukeh's spoiler above  thinking you can roll with it, kind of one of those you want to fall into yourself.

I do no recall that Ned and Robert were under Aryns care at the time of Neds families death. Also I cannot recall what had happened to Roberts parents? What was his father doing during this? Were they dead? I vaugly recall them being dead from a ship wreck or somthing.

Ned and Robert were wards of Jon Aryn and yes Robert's father and mother, Steffon Baratheon and Cassana Estermont, were killed together in a shipwreck, one of the reasons why Robert was being brought up by Jon.

I was trying to make the point though that the war was thought more on Neds grief and Roberts anger and passion over Neds sister then over any sought of oppression of the masses against the evil dictator sort of thing.

I agree with that for sure. As shitty as Aerys would become,  he didn't really step the line with anyone who could do anything until virtually the moment war was declared on him.

Hey Jay, what are your thoughts on

A part of me says too obvious but it's the most popular theory for sure and has the most "evidence" supporting it. You can actually check out my chapter by chapter thoughts as 1/2 of a reread team on A Game of Thrones (I did the first dozen or so), and  I do the latter portion which are for people who have read ALL the books. The first person is a new reader and spoiler free. I want to repeat, do not read my portions unless you want to be spoiled throughout. A lot of discussion by the time we get a half dozen of so behind us. It starts here:

http://www.boomtron.com/2010/07/playin-with-ice-and-fire-a-game-of-thoughts-the-prologue/

[Wood]

So it's interesting to me that...

In the TV show, Dany is mounted like a dog by Drago for awhile, and not treated with respect, until such time as she's taught by her handmaiden to take control.  Yet, in the book, Drago is portrayed as a sensitive lover from jump street. Why do you think they made that change?

[Jay Tomio]

So it's interesting to me that...

In the TV show, Dany is mounted like a dog by Drago for awhile, and not treated with respect, until such time as she's taught by her handmaiden to take control.  Yet, in the book, Drago is portrayed as a sensitive lover from jump street. Why do you think they made that change?

Note: Only spoilered because Wood tagged his, nothing revealed that you wouldn't know if you read Wood's question:

I think I'd understand if it wasn't HBO, but aside from possible time issues and nonessential (to the tv audience) character building/depth, I don't know. My only thought would be that  - I haven't seen the show - but I'd probably go with your description of the tv events are something that gives or shows Dany having power against something is  "strong". Building Dany, very much an outside participant, was my principle interest in the tv series in terms how they would pull it off and do it in a timely manner that wasn't boring on screen. The final acceptance by Dany was much discussed by book fans pre-show.

[Lukeh]

Yeh I think it was more a time issue or overlook. Same as there hasn't been much of the wolves or the Old bear and his crow.

What page/chapter you upto Wood? I am going to start a re-read. Would you (and anyone else) be up for a book of the month type, chapter by chapter (or however) re-read/first read discussion thread over in the book forum?

[the other mike]

Note: Only spoilered because Wood tagged his, nothing revealed that you wouldn't know if you read Wood's question:

I think I'd understand if it wasn't HBO, but aside from possible time issues and nonessential (to the tv audience) character building/depth, I don't know. My only thought would be that  - I haven't seen the show - but I'd probably go with your description of the tv events are something that gives or shows Dany having power against something is  "strong". Building Dany, very much an outside participant, was my principle interest in the tv series in terms how they would pull it off and do it in a timely manner that wasn't boring on screen. The final acceptance by Dany was much discussed by book fans pre-show.

pretty good analysis from someone who hasn't seen it!  very close to my guess too.
i hope the show lives up to your expectations when you finally watch it!

it also gives drogo an arc too (though not as nuanced as the book). the first time he takes dany, its like how a horse would, just plain fucking from behind. dany bring in some tenderness and humanity; civilization. the next time they have sex, its face-to-face. there's more emotion there, even a hint of fondness on drogo's part. maybe some relinquishing of control.

===

its a treat hearing about the book from jason and other first-timers. i can vicariously re-live the feeling of reading the book for the first time again. game of thrones was an eye opener for me; a continental shift in my expectation on what a fantasy book should be. before GoT, i thought fantasy was tolkien or dragonlance or forgotten realms or riftwar.

all i'm saying is, keep up the updates guys!

-mike

[elemental]

Think its about time I started reading these books, Have the first one on my kindle.
Have been watching the show and really enjoying it

[Jon_Samuelson]

Yeh I think it was more a time issue or overlook. Same as there hasn't been much of the wolves or the Old bear and his crow.

What page/chapter you upto Wood? I am going to start a re-read. Would you (and anyone else) be up for a book of the month type, chapter by chapter (or however) re-read/first read discussion thread over in the book forum?

I just re-read Game of Thrones not too long ago, but if you continue the re-read into A Clash of Kings and beyond, I'd definitely be interested, considering the new book is due out in July.

[Jay Tomio]

pretty good analysis from someone who hasn't seen it!  very close to my guess too.




-mike

 Thanks!


I'd definitely participant vicariously through comments on a reread.

it also gives drogo an arc too (though not as nuanced as the book). the first time he takes dany, its like how a horse would, just plain fucking from behind.

I *think* the books handles this indirectly with scenes by attendants from the wedding. Drogo in the book is amazingly setup in a short time (to be validated or for him to show uniquesness) by the words of others and by actions of his people.

[Jon_Samuelson]

Just saw a bit of cool news on Martin's blog...

Barristan Selmy becomes a POV character in A Dance With Dragons.  Color me excited, he's an awesome character, and I was ecstatic when he showed up in

Dany's

camp.

It's not the biggest spoiler in the world, but it might ruin a nice little surprise, and also indicates that two characters survive long enough to be in the upcoming book.

[Jon_Samuelson]

Well, that accelerated a bit.  Also a bit less subtle than the book.

[S. Earl]

That might have been the best hour of television I've seen in years.

[Swany]

i've been holding off judgement until i could get enough episodes under my belt and i gotta say after last nites episode it is imo the best show on TV.

[Wood]

i've been holding off judgement until i could get enough episodes under my belt and i gotta say after last nites episode it is imo the best show on TV.

I'm away on business, but am hoping my HBO Go will hook a brother up tonight when I check into my hotel.
 

[Swany]

I'm away on business, but am hoping my HBO Go will hook a brother up tonight when I check into my hotel.
 

if it works i think u r gonna love it.

As someone who has never read the books, i have found that all the crazy sub-plot points that really overwhelmed the first episode and had me on the fence because of it, have all started to come together to form an amazing world. Between this and The Killing i am loving my sunday nite TV.

[the other mike]

HOLY FUCK where to start? goddam, that was some good TV.

the non-book addition was a welcome peek into ____'s motives on why he/she joins the inevitable free-for-all. in fact, his/her orientation kinda surprised me. though now that i think about it, makes kind of sense.

the eyrie sets are beautiful. lysa is certifiably nucking futs. crazier 'n a shithouse rat. AGAIN with the excellent casting. and the

breast feeding!

oh my fucking god that was creepy!

man, i'm just listing all the cool shit that happened. i didn't even get to mention the action scenes or the meaty character moments...

-mike